brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (12/02/86)
>(For the record, I can definitely state that with Sunday openings >I and my family would have put more spending into the economy over >the past couple of years than we have done. As Orthodox Jews we >can't shop on Saturday, and evenings are a hassle with kids. We >do much of our food shopping on Sundays as it is, but there are >purchases which are less time-driven (e.g., a new car) which we >have put off for lack of convenient shopping time. We have a very >relaxing Sabbath of our own and have no need to rest on other people's.) Come on now. If you have money that you want to spend then you will find the time to spend it. What are you proposing, you have a huge hoard of money saved up that you really really want to spend but just haven't been able to find the time to ? Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. In fact, there are huge disadvantages. i.e. increased overhead for sales staff without increased sales, a lot more time spent away from family by the people who must work on Sunday. The idea that being open more days will increase sales is plainly idiotic in the long run. This is like saying that if every store stayed open 24 hours every day, sales would increase even more. I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates that there are no advantages to staying open. Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. Try not to become a man UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of value. Albert Einstein
rgatkinson@watmum.UUCP (12/02/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > > I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday > because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates > that there are no advantages to staying open. FLAME ON! You just admitted to having no justification for preventing Sunday openings, other than you can't see any reason that anyone would want to stay open. Unfortunately for you, we happen to live in a free society, and in such societies, it is the general rule that no action of any citizen should be prohibited unless there is an overwhelming compelling reason to do so. If it is not advantageous for someone to open on Sunday, then LET THEM FIND THAT OUT FOR THEMSELVES! It just might be the case that there are those who would disagree that there are no such advantages. Justificattion of laws using logic like you presented really scares me. It can be used to justify just about anything. Hope you have a fire extinguisher. FLAME OFF! > > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. > On the contrary, support your local merchant who has the gumption to stand up for himself. >Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of -- -bob atkinson "I do not think, therefore I am a moustache." - J.P. Sartre, "Nausea"
brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (12/03/86)
>> I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday >> because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates >> that there are no advantages to staying open. > You just admitted to having no justification for preventing > Sunday openings, other than you can't see any reason that anyone > would want to stay open. Unfortunately for you, we happen to > live in a free society, and in such societies, it is the general > rule that no action of any citizen should be prohibited unless > there is an overwhelming compelling reason to do so. If it is > not advantageous for someone to open on Sunday, then LET THEM > FIND THAT OUT FOR THEMSELVES! It just might be the case that > there are those who would disagree that there are no such > advantages. > Justificattion of laws using logic like you presented really > scares me. It can be used to justify just about anything. Did you read the whole posting or just choose to flame for the thrill of it ? I clearly stated that in the short run there is an incentive to stay open, and any rational merchant would choose to do this, if the criteria for operation is profit maximization. In the long run, there are several reasons why Sunday openings are undesirable, but these reasons are not entirely related to profit, i.e. any single merchant who doesn't open in the long run loses money; if all merchants don't open in the long run they all make money. Given your free society would you prefer the government limit Sunday openings or all the merchants get together (can you spell monopoly) and decide to profit maximize by not opening Sunday, or better yet, really profit maximize by opening only a few predetermined hours every week. Therefore, it is perfectly within the realm of responsible government to limit Sunday openings given that there exists this compelling reason. I agree in general with your comments about free society, etc, etc, I just disagree about the existence of the overwhelming compelling reason. Justification of posting based on briefly skimmed articles like you did really scares me. It can be used to justify responding to just about any posting. Try not to become a man UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of value. Albert Einstein
cbbrowne@watnot.UUCP (12/03/86)
In article <2822@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > Justification of posting based on briefly skimmed articles like > you did really scares me. It can be used to justify responding > to just about any posting. I seem to get the impression that such justification is rather typical on USENET. People do respond to just about any posting. Incidentally, I too do not think that Sunday openings are a wonderful idea. Not that it really stinks, but that it will hurt employees in retail operations. They will certainly be the ones singled out to work on Sundays. If everyone else were working Sundays, who would be available to buy anything? The reason why this all is a popular idea is that few people actually work on Sunday. If they start to do so (notably as retailers), then there is no more advantage to being open on Sunday. I think that this may well be a hulla-balloed thing that will turn out much less nice than it initially seems.
brad@looking.UUCP (12/03/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may > be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the > long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. In fact, > there are huge disadvantages. i.e. increased overhead for sales staff > without increased sales, a lot more time spent away from family by > the people who must work on Sunday. > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. This is a classic case of the "I don't see a need for it, so let's ban it" syndrome. At various times in my life I have lived in other parts of the world where things are open on Sunday. The convenience was much appreciated. I don't know about you, but many people get the impulse to buy things on Sunday and then realize that the stores aren't open. While it is true that sales of necessaries would not increase with Sunday openings - people won't drink more milk - sales of other things that do rely on impulse buys would increase. The retail industry exists for the consumer, and should be open when the consumer is able to shop. The idea of a retail store that is only open 9-5, M-F is a throwback to the days when families were supposed to have a non-working individual called the wife whose task it was to shop. If you haven't noticed, these days are over. Every argument I have seen for Sunday closing applies well to requiring stores to only open during "banker's hours." An employee protection law that limited the work week to 6 days would be another story (not that I would agree with it, either), but at least it would not specify one particular day for resting based on some religion. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
ksbooth@watcgl.UUCP (12/03/86)
Finally, a novel idea on the net: people should have a reason for posting articles!
sl@van-bc.UUCP (12/03/86)
> > Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may > be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the > long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. In fact, > there are huge disadvantages. i.e. increased overhead for sales staff > without increased sales, a lot more time spent away from family by > the people who must work on Sunday. > > The idea that being open more days will increase sales is plainly > idiotic in the long run. This is like saying that if every store > stayed open 24 hours every day, sales would increase even more. > This is a valid arguement only for the short period of time immediately after the conversion to Sunday shopping or to any longer period of shopping hours. However in the long run it is a fallacy. Stores DO increase their sales through natural growth that would have occurred anyway. It's just that with longer hours they don't have to build more stores to service that growth. Less physical plant equals less capital outlay. Less operating costs. In the long term your debt service ratio drops because your sales increase against your capital costs, and operating costs. The bottom line --- more profit. > I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday > because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates > that there are no advantages to staying open. > If it's such a bad idea why has no area that has switched to Sunday openings decided that is a bad idea and switched back? Why the big rush to change by large chains that operate that way in other areas? > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. > If the same thing happens in Ontario that happened in BC you won't being doing much shopping! Almost ALL major stores are open seven days a week. In fact most of the large supermarkets are open 8:00 AM to 12:00 PM seven days a week (at least the ones that are doing well :-)). Get out of the last century. Life is too short to argue about trivial things like this. The long and short of it is that you will end up with seven day shopping, you will end up with supermarkets open from eight to twelve, you will end up with a larger number of "convience" stores open twenty four hours. It's just taking longer in some areas than others. But it is happening and it doesn't matter how much you complain about it. It WILL happen. BC switched over several years back. The interesting thing is that listening to the news reports from Ontario right now is like stepping back about three years. The same hackneyed arguements, the same innuendo's etc. But be hopeful after about six months everyone realized that the world wouldn't come to an end, that extended hours are convienent, and there hasn't been a peep since. Disclaimer - I very rarely shop on Sunday afternoon, I have better things to do. Me, I like grocery shopping 11:00 PM on Sunday's - the stores virtually empty, no waits at the till, park within feet of the door etc :-). -- Stuart Lynne Public Access Network - Vancouver BC UUCP: ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vi!van-bc!sl Mail: 225B Evergreen Dr., Port Moody, BC, Canada, V3H 1S1 Phone: 604-937-7532
wagner@utcs.UUCP (12/03/86)
I think you all missed the point of the original posting (Dave Sherman, I think). He said 'we already have our own restful sabbath...we feel no need to rest on someone elses'. As I see it, the problem is one of religious freedom. The idea that a day be set aside, and retail store employees be allowed a day of rest is fine, and I doubt that anyone would seriously disagree with it. The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination. Jews observe Saturday as sabbath; Muslims observe Friday; my ignorance keeps me from being aware of others. The business issues are, to my view, aside from the point. Michael Wagner (wagner@utcs)
srradia@watmath.UUCP (12/03/86)
> >An employee protection law that limited the work week to 6 days would >be another story (not that I would agree with it, either), but at least >it would not specify one particular day for resting based on some religion. How would you ensure that a husband, wife and their children all have the same day off?
srradia@watmath.UUCP (12/03/86)
>The idea that a day be set aside, and retail store employees be allowed >a day of rest is fine, and I doubt that anyone would seriously disagree >with it. The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination. >Jews observe Saturday as sabbath; Muslims observe Friday; my ignorance keeps >me from being aware of others. The business issues are, to my view, >aside from the point. But then you could extend the same argument to Christmas and New Years. The equivalent days in my religion fall on different days. Are companies going to give me those days off and are schools going to give my children those days off? How far are you going to go? If we allow retail outlets to open on Sundays, do you think they are going to allow Christians to take Sundays off if they so desire? Agreed that Sunday closing is of christian origin, but in Canada I just look at it as a day of holiday due to historic reasons.
dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (12/03/86)
I think it's rather ridiculous that most stores are open for only one day on which I'm not working - Saturday. I'm often working Thursday and Friday evening, so evening openings aren't too useful to me. I do much of my shopping for food in 24-hour convenience stores, since they happen to be open when I go home from work and normal grocery stores are not. I would be very happy to find *one* regular grocery store nearby that is open 'till midnight. I don't want all of them to be, I just would like one that kept different hours. Why is it necessary for all stores to maintain the same open hours? If you want to restrict stores' open days for the benefit of their employees, why not simply decree that each individual store must be closed one day a week (or make it two days a week, which must be "better" than things are now)? Then storeowners could decide for themselves which days they would remain open. At least a few would choose to be open both Saturday and Sunday, making me happy, and nobody would have to work more than 5 days a week, making the workers happy.
mugc@utecfa.UUCP (ModemUserGroupChairman) (12/03/86)
[]
wagner@utcs.UUCP (Michael Wagner) writes:
[some stuff deleted]
' The idea that a day be set aside, and retail store employees be allowed
' a day of rest is fine, and I doubt that anyone would seriously disagree
' with it. The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination.
' Jews observe Saturday as sabbath; Muslims observe Friday; my ignorance keeps
' me from being aware of others. The business issues are, to my view,
' aside from the point.
' Michael Wagner (wagner@utcs)
[end of quote]
A day of rest is something which is desirable if it can be afforded. To
legislate it to a particular day is not necessary and therefore senseless.
If some people want to rest on Sunday, they should be able to do so;
similarly, if some people want/need to work on Sundays, they should be
allowed to. This makes sense.
For the record, muslims do NOT observe a day of sabbath. Ie. there
is no day of the week when one is forced to work or rest.
anees munshi
--
Anees Munshi
@ University of Toronto Engineering Comp. Facility :B
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!utcsri!utecfb!munshiandrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (12/03/86)
Say every store stayed open on Sunday. Would the revenue from
the increased impulse buying -- as Brad points out, the only extra
revenue we can reasonably expect such a practice to take in --
offset the cost of staying open one more day?
If so, then logically everyone should stay open on Sunday.
If not, then it's a classic prisoner's dilemma / tragedy of the
commons situation. Originally all retailers stay closed Sunday.
Then some retailers find it is tremendously to their advantage to
open on Sunday (usually the larger stores, who can support such a
practice). They get a lot out of it, until the stores which didn't
open go out of business or open themselves, at which point the only
stores left are stores which open Sunday. By the assumption at the
top of this paragraph, there's no advantage to anyone; whereas if
they had all just stayed closed, everyone would be doing better.
I really don't know which of these situations holds, but I
would suspect the latter. Allowing Sunday openings would, it seems,
only have the effect of creating a tragedy-of-the-commons setup.
My mother (amazingly) had another good argument against Sunday
openings, or at least in favour of stores staying closed some day
on the weekend. Workers who have kids who stay in school all day
weekdays, but who have to work themselves on the weekends, never
get days free with their kids. This already happens to a certain
extent with some workers (police officers, firefighters, etc.).
Allowing it to happen with large parts of the retail sector would
not be good for family cohesiveness.
--Jamie.
...!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews
"The fires col, my storys tol"tim@dciem.UUCP (Tim Pointing) (12/03/86)
In article <1986Dec3.055023.29873@utcs.uucp> wagner@utcs.UUCP (Michael Wagner) writes: >... >As I see it, the problem is one of religious freedom. >... >The fact that it MUST be Sunday is obvious religious descrimination. Lots of people seem to be mis-informed about the "Sunday Closing" law. The law does not require stores to close on Sunday. I believe that the law states that stores which are covered by the law must have been closed for a 24 hour period in the last 7 days in order to remain open legally. (perhaps someone at LSUC could check if this is in-fact the case.) -- Tim Pointing, DCIEM {decvax|ihnp4|watmath}!utzoo!dciem!tim or uw-beaver!utcsri!dciem!tim or seismo!mnetor!lsuc!dciem!tim
csc@watmath.UUCP (12/03/86)
It used to be that Christian ideology and indoctrination justified Sunday closing. It's a sign of the times that it is now fashionable to dig for secular reasons. Sunday opening will oppress the individual worker. oppress the family. lower retailing efficiency. Will it oppress more than it frees? Will the conjectured retailing loss of efficiency be balanced by the gain in sales and the gain in efficiency for shoppers? These questions cannot be answered before the fact. There are too many variables. There are too many possible measures for each economic and social goal. The arguments against Sunday shopping are weak. There is no argument for Sunday shopping. There is only the fact that growing numbers of people want to do it. People who claim that Sunday shopping is clearly against the common interest are full of beans. ``The common interest'' is not concrete enough for us to easily relate mundanities like Sunday shopping to it. The people who incline toward Sunday shopping happen to be winning. Go team go! Watch social values change... Tracy Tims mail to watmath!unit36!tracy
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (12/04/86)
> ... Given your > free society would you prefer the government limit Sunday > openings or all the merchants get together (can you spell > monopoly) and decide to profit maximize by not opening > Sunday... Given a free society, the answer is clear: neither. It may be in the interest of the merchants to restrict Sunday openings, but it is not in the interest of the customers. As others have pointed out, once the interest of the merchants takes top priority, clearly we end up with the stores open only 9-5 Mon-Fri, or less. There is no valid reason for the government to intervene to help the merchants at the customers' expense. If it were a clear-cut, everyone-benefits-nobody-loses case, that would be different. It's not. If you are truly concerned about the store employees -- have you asked them whether they want you to protect them? -- then solve the real problem, by imposing limits on the work-week or something along those lines. That's a pretty flimsy excuse for Sunday closing. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (12/04/86)
What would be wrong with requiring stores to close one day of the
week, the daying being of their choosing, and at the same time
giving their employees at least two days off, one being the closing
day and another being at the employee's choice? That way there would
be no overworking, small stores would be at no disadvantage, and
factory workers (and orthodox Jews) would be able to shop at their
convenience. Furthermore, there would be no scent of having things
arranged to suit a particular supernaturalist sect.
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt
{uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsri!dciem!mmtdave@lsuc.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP writes: > >>(For the record, I can definitely state that with Sunday openings >>I and my family would have put more spending into the economy over >>the past couple of years than we have done. As Orthodox Jews we >>can't shop on Saturday, and evenings are a hassle with kids. We >>do much of our food shopping on Sundays as it is, but there are >>purchases which are less time-driven (e.g., a new car) which we >>have put off for lack of convenient shopping time. We have a very >>relaxing Sabbath of our own and have no need to rest on other people's.) > > Come on now. If you have money that you want to spend then you > will find the time to spend it. What are you proposing, you have > a huge hoard of money saved up that you really really want to spend > but just haven't been able to find the time to ? Read what I said above. We don't have a huge hoard of money, but we do have a substantial positive cash flow and a credit line. When we don't spend it, our income goes into reducing the mortgage. We also have two very young kids. We like to spend time with them in the evenings, and we are usually too tired to do other than "basic" shopping in the evenings anyway. We cannot shop on Saturdays, except in December when there's a combination of late store openings and early sundown (the Sabbath is over at sundown). And then it's only the malls which are open. Unless we make a determined effort to go and look for something, other than everyday supermarket purchases, we are unlikely to be able to shop on any day other than Sunday. If we decide there's something we really need (e.g., kids' clothes) or want (e.g., the piano we recently got), we'll make a special effort, go out in the evening or take time off during the day, and get it. But there's a whole range of things we might buy if we had more casual shopping time. A second car is just one. > Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may > be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the > long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. I beg to differ. See above. I wouldn't object to legislation which entitles employees to Sunday off if they wish it. That would be fair to the Christian majority in the province without interfering with my shopping. I'm sure there are plenty of unemployed people willing to work on Sundays for some income. David Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
brad@looking.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <605@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: > > Say every store stayed open on Sunday. Would the revenue from >the increased impulse buying -- as Brad points out, the only extra >revenue we can reasonably expect such a practice to take in -- >offset the cost of staying open one more day? No, I didn't say that it was the only extra revenue, I just pointed it out as one example that I have from personal experience. Others on the net have pointed out others. The most obvious is efficient use of physical plant. Assuming a fixed sales volume, a 6,000 square foot store (and associated cash registers etc.) open 7 days can handle as much as a 7,000 square foot store open 6 days, provided the size of the store is proportional to expected traffic and not variety of merchandise. Consider your local supermarket. Saturday is such an incredibly busy day right now. It's the only day the parking lot is full. In fact, with Sunday shopping, they might get away with a parking lot 1/2 the size! The savings apply not just to the market but to the city. Saturday shopping traffic (and downtown parking) is strongly reduced. Remember that so much of our resources are allocated for peak load (Saturday) and not just average load. The savings can be tremendous. Of course there is an extra cost, namely staff. But with the same number of customers, averaged out better, You actually might need fewer staff. This is less likely, because people do want personal service. Even so, why all this complaint about increasing employment? > >Allowing Sunday openings would, it seems, >only have the effect of creating a tragedy-of-the-commons setup. You only see an immediate effect. It's true that the need to stay competitive requires everybody to switch at once. But you miss the forest for the trees. This is a side effect of retailers doing something that the customers truly want. > > My mother (amazingly) had another good argument against Sunday >openings, or at least in favour of stores staying closed some day >on the weekend. Workers who have kids who stay in school all day >weekdays, but who have to work themselves on the weekends, never >get days free with their kids. This already happens to a certain >extent with some workers (police officers, firefighters, etc.). >Allowing it to happen with large parts of the retail sector would >not be good for family cohesiveness. Unfortunate, but you can't have everything. Nobody will be forced to work on Sunday. If you want to have kids, it's fully accepted that you have to reconcile your job and your desire to be with them. If an unemployed worker will serve people on Sunday and you won't, why do you demand laws to protect your vested interest? > -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
dave@lsuc.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2023@dciem.UUCP> tim@dciem.UUCP (Tim Pointing) writes: >Lots of people seem to be mis-informed about the "Sunday Closing" law. The >law does not require stores to close on Sunday. I believe that the law states >that stores which are covered by the law must have been closed for a 24 hour >period in the last 7 days in order to remain open legally. Sorry, Tim, that is not the case. If it were the case, I would have much less objection. The Retail Business Holidays Act, R.S.O. 1980 c. 453, s. 1(1)(a): In this Act, "holiday" means ... (ix) Sunday ... s.2(1): Every person carrying on a retail business in a retail business establishment shall ensure that no member of the public is admitted thereto and no goods or services are sold or offered for sale therein by retail on a holiday. There is an exception (s.3(4)) for Sundays where the store was closed "during a period of 24 consecutive hours in the period of 32 hours immediately preceding the Sunday", AND the number of persons serving the public doesn't exceed 7, AND the total area used for serving the public on Sunday is less than 5,000 square feet. This exception effectively allows Jewish stores which are closed from Friday sundown until after the Sabbath to be open on Sunday, but only if they're small. (The size limitation has effectively been struck down for establishments closed on Saturday for religious reasons; the Ontario Court of Appeal overturned the conviction of Nortown Meats, a Jewish (although not kosher) butcher/food store in Toronto, on the basis of the Charter of Rights. However, the convictions of stores which stay open on Sunday but are not closed on Saturday for religious reasons, such as Paul Magder Furs, were upheld by the same court. All of this is now on appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.) David Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (12/04/86)
>Unfortunate, but you can't have everything. Nobody will be forced to >work on Sunday. If you want to have kids, it's fully accepted that you >have to reconcile your job and your desire to be with them. >Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 Brad made some good points re why it may be economically attractive, even in the long run, for stores to stay open. However, the above statement shows an incredible amount of naivete; people will be forced to work Sundays. Maybe not at the end of a shotgun, but pressures to work Sundays will still exist. But then, given the supposed unemployment crisis maybe the extra job creation wouldn't be so terrible. Try not to become a man UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of value. Albert Einstein
bwp@utcs.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2819@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP writes: > > I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday > because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates > that there are no advantages to staying open. > > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. > If you have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday then why advise people to boycott stores that are opened on Sunday? Why not let the market place determine what it can bear? Clearly, if stores find that they are not making enough money to cover the expense of Sunday openings, they will not stay open on Sunday in the long run. Let the labour laws protect the rights of the retail workers, and in this case, let the Charter of Rights protect the interests of the market place. Bruce Pinn
kishore2@watdcsu.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <2822@watdcsu.UUCP> brewster@watdcsu.UUCP (Dave Brewer / Sys Des Eng / PAMI / U of Waterloo) writes: > >>> I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday >>> because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates >>> that there are no advantages to staying open. > > ... > ....... I clearly stated that in the short run there > is an incentive to stay open, and any rational merchant would > choose to do this, if the criteria for operation is profit > maximization. In the long run, there are several reasons why > Sunday openings are undesirable, but these reasons are not > entirely related to profit, i.e. any single merchant who > doesn't open in the long run loses money; if all merchants > don't open in the long run they all make money. Given your > free society would you prefer the government limit Sunday > openings or all the merchants get together (can you spell > monopoly) and decide to profit maximize by not opening > Sunday, or better yet, really profit maximize by opening only > a few predetermined hours every week. > > Therefore, it is perfectly within the realm of responsible > government to limit Sunday openings given that there exists this > compelling reason. I agree in general with your comments about > free society, etc, etc, I just disagree about the existence of > the overwhelming compelling reason. > > Justification of posting based on briefly skimmed articles like > you did really scares me. It can be used to justify responding > to just about any posting. > > Try not to become a man >UUCP : {decvax|ihnp4}!watmath!watdcsu!brewster of success but rather try >Else : Dave Brewer, (519) 886-6657 try to become a man of > value. Albert Einstein I also happen to think that the choice to open on Sundays should be left up to the merchant, or businessman. There is already too much government interference in business today. That however is an aside. What I would really like to discuss is the question of profitability for merchants who open Sundays.It is not clear to me that Sunday openings are unprofitable. A couple of examples. First, look at Chinatown in Toronto on a Sunday. You would think that the entire ethnic Chinese population is there on a Sunday! Well, you say that's an exception, it's a designated tourist area. But whenever I have been there, the number of tourists has been very small in relation to people from TO. Another example. In many cities in BC, everything (almost) is open Sundaysnow. The effect has been to increase competition, resulting in what I felt was increased service to the customers. One only has to walk into Jimmy P's supermarkets to feel this. Longer hours and more days open do stimulate the economy with more spending, impulse shopping is _not_ dead ( at least not for me :-) They are open Sundays in BC for about 2 years now I think ( someone currently living in BC now might want to supply the exact figure) and it doesn'tlook like there's any sign of it ending. Now, let's go to the other side of theworld, Hong Kong. Free enterprise reigns king in Hong Kong. _EVERY_ merchant and most businesses, factories, ect. are open on everyday. The merchant's busiest day is Sunday. And if its not profitable, they don't do it in HK! Many merchants rent the space they do business in. The rent and taxes has to be paid regardless of whether they are open that day. What a waste of resourcesto be closed Sundays! The rent in the large malls is not _cheap_ ! With more families where both partners are working, Sunday is a convenient time to do shopping. Friday nights and Saturdays are so crowded in some places that it's difficult to spend money because of all the time you spend lining up to pay! I say let the merchants and the consumer decide, if it is convenient the consumer will buy, if it's profitable, the merchant will be open. -- ============================================================================= | Sherman Lang | | | Systems Design Engineering | "A screaming comes across the sky..." | | University of Waterloo | | =============================================================================
clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) (12/04/86)
> ... Nobody will be forced to >work on Sunday. If you want to have kids, it's fully accepted that you >have to reconcile your job and your desire to be with them. If >an unemployed worker will serve people on Sunday and you won't, why do >you demand laws to protect your vested interest? I don't like to be personal, but I will: How many children do you have, Brad? If you do have children, do you stay home with them (when they're sick, for example) or does your wife? If it's you, then I congratulate you on "reconciling your job and your desire to be with them". Otherwise your wife -- like mine -- is caught in the usual bind, and the only dif- ference between you and me is that I'm not willing to tell her she deserves it. If you don't have children, think hard before you have any. They're more important than your job, but if you have children you need a job even more than before. By the way, why isn't all this in can.politics? Or is that dead? -- Jim Clarke -- Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416) 978-4058 {allegra,cornell,decvax,linus,utzoo}!utcsri!clarke
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (12/04/86)
> If not, then it's a classic prisoner's dilemma / tragedy of the > commons situation... there's no advantage to anyone... Nonsense. Change that to "there's no advantage to any merchant" and I might admit its plausibility, although I'm not convinced it's true. There is clearly an advantage to the Sunday shopper. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
srradia@watmath.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <709@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >> My mother (amazingly) had another good argument against Sunday >>openings, or at least in favour of stores staying closed some day >>on the weekend. Workers who have kids who stay in school all day >>weekdays, but who have to work themselves on the weekends, never >>get days free with their kids. > >Unfortunate, but you can't have everything. And you prefer Sunday opening and I don't. > Nobody will be forced to >work on Sunday. If you want to have kids, it's fully accepted that you >have to reconcile your job and your desire to be with them. By that you mean that if you don't want to work on Sundays, then quit your job. You might not be aware of this, but in many lines of work (apart from computer science) it is not all that easy to get a job. For many parents, they will have to choose between not spending time with their children and starving. Yes, they will choose to work on Sundays and not starve. I personally know many families who would be put in such positions just because a bunch of retaliers want to make more money.
andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (12/04/86)
In article <709@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >Consider your local supermarket. Saturday is such an incredibly busy >day right now. It's the only day the parking lot is full. In fact, with >Sunday shopping, they might get away with a parking lot 1/2 the size! >... >You only see an immediate effect. It's true that the need to stay >competitive requires everybody to switch at once. But you miss the >forest for the trees. This is a side effect of retailers doing something >that the customers truly want. I see your point, that in fact even if everyone opened on Sunday it would have a net positive effect on *some* stores. However, (a) I'd like some credit for having recognized this as a possibility! and (b) I don't think it would have a net positive effect on those stores which don't have the expenses you mention. > ... If you want to have kids, it's fully accepted that you >have to reconcile your job and your desire to be with them. If >an unemployed worker will serve people on Sunday and you won't, why do >you demand laws to protect your vested interest? Why do we demand that the market take its course even at the expense of increased misery to unemployed workers who *must* work Sunday or not work at all? This gets into economic arguments which I don't have the background to engage in, but I just don't believe that the all-holy Market must take precedence over every other aspect of life. --Jamie. ...!ubc-vision!ubc-cs!andrews "Now it's dark"
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (12/05/86)
In article <3750@watmath.UUCP> srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) writes: >How would you ensure that a husband, wife and their children all have the >same day off? That doesn't happen now anyways. Think of all the people on shift work. *Especially* 12 hour shift work. My father-in-law hasn't had a Saturday or Sunday with the family in the last 3 months. -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis ARPA: mnetor!spectrix!clewis@seismo.css.gov Phone: (416)-474-1955
clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (12/05/86)
In article <3751@watmath.UUCP> srradia@watmath.UUCP (sanjay Radia) writes: >But then you could extend the same argument to Christmas and New Years. >The equivalent days in my religion fall on different days. >Are companies going to give me those days off and are schools going to >give my children those days off? >How far are you going to go? Companies and schools already do give people days off for their religious observances. At least in many cases they do. -- Chris Lewis, Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis ARPA: mnetor!spectrix!clewis@seismo.css.gov Phone: (416)-474-1955
edusoft@utecfa.UUCP (Educational Software) (12/05/86)
In article watdcsu.2819, brewster@watdcsu.UUCP writes: > Sunday openings are the worst idea around. In the short run it may > be better for the store to open if the competitors don't, but in the > long run everyone will be open, and there is no advantage. In fact, > there are huge disadvantages. i.e. increased overhead for sales staff > without increased sales, a lot more time spent away from family by > the people who must work on Sunday. > > The idea that being open more days will increase sales is plainly > idiotic in the long run. This is like saying that if every store > stayed open 24 hours every day, sales would increase even more. > > I have no particular interest in keeping stores closed on Sunday > because it is the day or rest, long term analysis just indicates > that there are no advantages to staying open. > > Protest Sunday openings, shop at stores which don't open Sundays. > This was in reply to a man who stated that he was an orthodox Jew, and that Sundays would provide him with more time to shop as he does not want to break the sabbath by shopping on Saturdays. Nobody is saying that anyone has to open their stores 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, such as you suggest. People could open their stores Wednesday thru Sunday, taking Monday and Tuesday as their "weekend". Or, if they want to be open 6 days a week, they might want to take Saturday off instead (say for personal religious reasons). The law as it is presently formulated is religious persecutation, not a labor law. It tells everybody that they cannot open on SUNDAY, a particular day of the week. Think how absurd it would be if the law said you could be open any day but Thursday. You cannot open on Sunday because Sunday is a religious holiday for the people who made the law and who want to keep it. If we think that not working all 7 days of a week is an important labor issue, then lets write a law that says that no employer can force any employee to work on 7 consecutive days. This would protect the employees without religious persecution. Additionally, employees might be granted the right to choose which day they want as their weekly holiday (for religious reasons or whatever). This way the situation would much fairer to those people who want to work (or shop) on Sundays. bill idsardi educational software products 1263 bay st. toronto 922-0087
edusoft@utecfa.UUCP (Educational Software) (12/05/86)
cbbrown writes in article watnot.12249:
> If everyone else were working Sundays, who would be available to buy anything?
Seems to me, most everyone works Monday to Friday, I wonder why any stores are
open then, obviously there's no one available to buy anything. :-)
bill idsardi
esp (see previous article for rest of this silliness)brad@looking.UUCP (12/05/86)
>I don't like to be personal, but I will: How many children do you have, >Brad? If you do have children, do you stay home with them (when they're >sick, for example) or does your wife? If it's you, then I congratulate >you on "reconciling your job and your desire to be with them". Otherwise >your wife -- like mine -- is caught in the usual bind, and the only dif- >ference between you and me is that I'm not willing to tell her she deserves >it. >Jim Clarke -- Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 As usual, I forgot that most people have forgotten the definition of the word "force," and thus drop to personal comments. Nobody will be forced to work on Sunday, as I said. Being forced to work on Sunday is *not* the same as having willingness to work on Sunday as a job requirement. It isn't the same, but some might argue it's a fine line. The fact remains that most of the workforce doesn't even work Saturday right now. Even fewer will be working Sunday. If you claim that the situation is "work on Sunday or you won't work anywhere," then you must realize that by all accounts Sunday opening will increase the number of jobs in that sector, lessening the unemployment problem. You can't scream "Sunday opening will force us to work Sunday or be replaced by the unemployed" and "Reduce unemployment" at the same time. I don't have kids, and I do usually work Sundays. And Saturdays. And at 10 pm on Thursdays and most other times. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
edusoft@utecfa.UUCP (Educational Software) (12/05/86)
From: srradia@watmath.UUCP Message-ID: <3751@watmath.UUCP> > But then you could extend the same argument to Christmas and New Years. > The equivalent days in my religion fall on different days. > Are companies going to give me those days off and are schools going to > give my children those days off? > How far are you going to go? well, when i went to public school in Cleveland (way back when) we did get all Christian and all Jewish holidays off. it also seems to me that York University (here in Toronto) has a policy where provision has to be made by the professors either not to test material which was delivered to the class on Jewish holidays or to provide copies of the material to students who did not attend the class for such religious reasons. so, in my experience, this is perfectly plausible. i also think it's a good idea. bill idsardi esp
clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) (12/05/86)
In article <710@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >As usual, I forgot that most people have forgotten the definition of >the word "force," and thus drop to personal comments. Brad's objecting to personal comments that I made. Reasonable enough to object -- nobody likes being commented, as computer scientists know -- but I think he's missed my point. The point was that for most of us there is no choice between children and work. Almost everyone wants children eventually, and for the majority of couples both father and mother must work in order to support the family. But while we're deciding on economic arguments alone -- with a little touch of consumer convenience -- that on every day of the week at least some stores should be open, we're doing nothing to provide the social support that the retail workers will need. Like daycare on Sundays, for example. Yes, there are already people like shift workers who have these troubles now. Do they like it? Will the situation be better if more people have the same problems? Yes, there are already people trying to talk us into better daycare and other social services. Are any of the people in this discussion who advocate seven- day opening also pushing seven-day daycare? (I haven't seen it, but "rn" kindly murdered my .newsrc recently, and I missed part of the discussion.) >I don't have kids, and I do usually work Sundays. And Saturdays. And at >10 pm on Thursdays and most other times. I like working at odd times, too. But, like Brad, I make sure people know about it -- it's special, and a sign of interest and dedication. Nobody's telling me, "Come in Sunday or be fired," and I *never* have to work odd days when my children are sick. Candidate for new .signature: Why isn't this discussion in *.politics? -- Jim Clarke -- Dept. of Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416) 978-4058 {allegra,cornell,decvax,linus,utzoo}!utcsri!clarke
acton@mprvaxa.UUCP (12/05/86)
In article <709@looking.UUCP> brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >Consider your local supermarket. Saturday is such an incredibly busy >day right now. It's the only day the parking lot is full. In fact, with >Sunday shopping, they might get away with a parking lot 1/2 the size! > >The savings apply not just to the market but to the city. Saturday >shopping traffic (and downtown parking) is strongly reduced. Remember >that so much of our resources are allocated for peak load (Saturday) and >not just average load. The savings can be tremendous. Living here in Lotus land where we have had Sunday shopping for three or four years I am not convinced that peak load in the downtown area is reduced because of Sunday shopping and mall parking lots always seem to be full on Sundays so someone (merchants + customers) must benefitting. The one point that has been alluded to in the various articles but not spelled out is that stores are suppose to exist for customers. To me that means they should be open when it is convenient for the customers. It seems to me rather ironic that in the past most service industries have kept hours that make it very difficult for the average working person to get to a store or a bank, for example. I recall the days when normal banking hours were from 10:00 to 3:00 and if you were lucky they might be open until 6:00 on Friday. Is it any wonder there were huge lineups on Friday afternoons? As far as I am concerned this is the same type of service I get from a store that doesn't stay open late or on Sundays. To buy something I am expected to either rush to the business on the way home from work or on Saturdays and then spend my time in some huge lineup because everyone else is doing the same thing. The name of the game is suppose to be customer service and it is continually harped about in the various consumer columns of newspapers but no one seems to interested in providing it. One thing I have noticed is that store hours during the week seem to have been reduced since Sunday shopping has been allowed. Typically stores used to be open from 9:00 or 9:30 to 6:00 and now it is more likely to be 10:00 to 6:00. So the question is, have merchants just shifted this extra 5 shopping hours to Sunday where it is more profitable? (On Sunday most stores are open from around noon to 5) Why though does working on Sunday single out merchants? People in the restaurant, hotel, entertainment and telephone industries all work on Sundays to some degree. Why does the government pick on merchants and not on the employers in these other industries? Donald Acton
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (12/05/86)
> ... I just don't > believe that the all-holy Market must take precedence over every > other aspect of life. The alternative is the all-holy Government taking precedence, remember. For most things (not all!), I feel safer with the Market doing the deciding. It has less tendency to think it has a God-given right to run my life. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
glee@cognos.UUCP (Godfrey Lee) (12/05/86)
This whole thing is very strange to me, a person who grew up in a metropolitan city (Hong Kong) that does not have hangups about religion (Sunday). Stores there open when they want, as long as they want, which means shopping becomes more of a family event. Most of the large stores still only open 6 days a week, they pick a weekday to close (some pick Monday, some Wednesday...), and they close at a decent hour at night, like 9pm, not because they have to, but it just makes sense economically. The stores that are owner operated, small ma & pa shops, tend to open for long hours, because that gives them a competitive edge, just like corner stores here does. So, I think that arbitrary decision that Sunday is a day of rest is stupid, and not in keeping with a modern day metropolitan city, where in most families both parents have to work, and have no time to shop during the week. It would make more sense, if you are going to control store openings, to force them to close on Wednesdays! I think a more reasonable thing to control is the number of hours that a store can be open, actually probably the number of hours an employee can be forced to work, plus mandatory overtime even if he is willing to work more hours. The market place will sort out the rest. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Godfrey Lee, Cognos Incorporated, 3755 Riverside Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1G 3N3 (613) 738-1440 decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!glee -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
glee@cognos.UUCP (Godfrey Lee) (12/07/86)
In article <3725@utcsri.UUCP> clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) writes: >> (from Brad Templeton) ... Nobody will be forced to >>work on Sunday. If you want to have kids, it's fully accepted that you >>have to reconcile your job and your desire to be with them. If >>an unemployed worker will serve people on Sunday and you won't, why do >>you demand laws to protect your vested interest? > >I don't like to be personal, but I will: How many children do you have, >Brad? If you do have children, do you stay home with them (when they're >sick, for example) or does your wife? If it's you, then I congratulate >you on "reconciling your job and your desire to be with them". Otherwise >your wife -- like mine -- is caught in the usual bind, and the only dif- >ference between you and me is that I'm not willing to tell her she deserves >it. > >If you don't have children, think hard before you have any. They're more >important than your job, but if you have children you need a job even more >than before. This is not to come to Brad's defense, hi Brad, bet you don't remember me, but... I do have kids, I am not forced to work weekends, but I do find it necessary to work on weekends sometimes (more and more it seems), or worse, to be away on business for days on end. So I have to juggle my career with my desire and need to be with my family (my wife runs her own business, and you think she doesn't HAVE TO work nights and weekends? - a lot more pressure when it is your own money invested!!), so what's new, that is life! I don't ask for government regulations to protect me, I don't even get overtime. So I have more job security than hourly wage employees, or do I? It is a lot easier these days to find hourly-pay jobs than career jobs! ramble... ramble... The point is, Sunday closing is arbitrary, put there not for protecting the workers, or the merchants, or to give families the same day off, or to force them to spend the day together doing nothing (to my wife, if you can't shop, you are doing nothing - Sorry dear, can't resist). It was put there because of religious reasons. If this is a Jewish nation, it would be from sundown Friday to whatever, if this is a Budist nation, probably no sunday, but lots of days off during major religious festivals (equivalent of Christmas and Easter). So, any arguments for keeping Sunday closing based not on religious reasons are not relavant. If one tries to argue based on religion, one will find that to be out of sync with Canada's belief of cultural mosaic (we will respect your culture if you abide by our religion? Come on!). So, either way you look at it, arguing for Sunday closing is pointless!! LET'S SEE THOSE FLAMES! As I said before, arguing for guaranteed days off for workers is a separate issue that I might support, but not Sunday closing! -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Godfrey Lee, Cognos Incorporated, 3755 Riverside Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1G 3N3 (613) 738-1440 decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!glee -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
dave@lsuc.UUCP (12/07/86)
In article <1944@utecfa.UUCP> edusoft@utecfa.UUCP (Educational Software) writes: > >well, when i went to public school in Cleveland (way back when) we did >get all Christian and all Jewish holidays off. it also seems to me >that York University (here in Toronto) has a policy where provision >has to be made by the professors either not to test material which >was delivered to the class on Jewish holidays or to provide copies >of the material to students who did not attend the class for such >religious reasons. That's standard policy at York and U of T. More interestingly, all of York University, and the law school at U of T, are closed on the first day of Rosh Hashanah and on Yom Kippur. The feeling is that it doesn't make a lot of sense running classes when a large proportion (1/3?) of students will not be attending. I usually work on December 25. Dave Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
acton@mprvaxa.UUCP (12/08/86)
In article <3731@utcsri.UUCP> clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) writes: > >The point was that for most of us there is no choice between children and >work. Almost everyone wants children eventually, and for the majority >of couples both father and mother must work in order to support the family. I certainly do not agree with this last assertion that to have a family both father and mother *must* work to support it. I think that most people decide they want to work not that they have to work. As two income families they have become used to a certain way of life and they do not want to give that up, so both parents work. After all it is a lot easier to continue to live on two incomes after the "child" arrives then to make even more drastic changes in lifestyle by voluntarily taking a substantial cut in family income. >But while we're deciding on economic arguments alone -- with a little >touch of consumer convenience -- that on every day of the week at least >some stores should be open, we're doing nothing to provide the social >support that the retail workers will need. Like daycare on Sundays, for >example. One of the arguments being made as to why people need Sunday off is so that they can be with their children. It seems to me that the need for daycare would only exist when both parents work on Sunday, not a very likely occurrence, but one that will occur. (You certainly don't need day care if one of the parents is at home.) I hope that the author, when suggesting that we aren't providing the required social support like Sunday daycare, is just commenting on the fact that most daycare services are not open on Sundays and is not suggesting that there should be taxpayer (government) subsidized daycare. I do not support any form of subsidized daycare. Our governments have big enough debts as it is and I don't want them forking out even more money on another social program. Donald Acton
manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (12/09/86)
As a committed socialist, I don't often talk in glowing terms about the power of the marketplace. However, opening hours is one area in which the marketplace generally does do the right thing. As an example, in Vancouver the supermarket chains decided to defy the closing bylaw, opening from 8am to midnight. After a few weeks, it became clear when the peak hours are, and, depending upon the locale, various stores adjusted their hours to match demand. Thus, in my neighbourhood, the Super-Valu and Safeway stores across the street from each other set their hours at 8am to 10pm, while some stores went back to 6pm closing, and others stay open till midnight. (BTW, the weirdest arrangement I ever saw was in Boston in the 70s. Some supermarket chains were open 24 hours a day 6 days a week, but because of a Massachusetts law, they had to close on Sundays. Bars could stay open all day on Sunday.) What worries me about this debate is that it pits convenience for the shopper against protection of employees. If Sunday shopping is approved (and, whether it is approved by the Supreme Court or by voter pressure, it will be approved), the battle is lost and employees are screwed (at least, according to Ian Scott). The obvious thing for the govt of Ontario to do is to forget about these silly closing laws and get on with changing the provincial Labour Code in order to ensure that employees are protected against working on Sundays.
dave@garfield.UUCP (12/09/86)
If you find it so upsetting that some persons will have to work 7
days a week, maybe replacement legislation should be passed for
the affected people saying that they are legally entitled to one day
off a week. This law would give the benifit of both schemes
with little of the disadvantages of either.
dave
--
UUCP: {utcsri,ihnp4,allegra,philabs}!garfield!dave
CDNNET: David Janes <dave@garfield.mun.cdn>ns@maccs.UUCP (Nicholas Solntseff) (12/10/86)
Having lived and worked in most major Anglo-Saxon countries, as well as
a short spell in India, I would like to put forward a conjecture:
Sunday store closing in Canada is intended to keep the Churches full
on Sundays.
Nick Solntseff, Dept. of C.Sc. and Systems
..... utzoo!mnetor!genat!maccs!nsdave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (12/11/86)
In article <161@maccs.UUCP> ns@maccs.UUCP (Nicholas Solntseff) writes: > > Sunday store closing in Canada is intended to keep the Churches full > on Sundays. If that were so, I'd be quite willing to put up with the stores not being open until after 12:00 noon. David Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai watmath decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (12/11/86)
NOTE: Jim switched from can.general to can.politics. He's right. I'm cross-posting this only to warn can.general subscribers to make sure they're reading can.politics if they want to continue the discussion. This article has a Followup-To: can.politics. In article <3756@utcsri.UUCP> clarke@utcsri.UUCP (Jim Clarke) writes: >You free marketeers sound to me as if you want Sunday opening because it's >fairer for consumers and merchants, but you're not interested in fairness >to the people who'd work Sundays. That's not a free market -- it's a free >lunch. Let's see... g/Sunday/s//evening/p Hmm... g/Sunday/s//Saturday/p Hmm... g/Sunday opening/s//Sunday movie theatre opening/p Hmm... g/Sunday opening/s//Sunday public transportation/p Jim, if the problem is really "fairness to the people who'd work Sundays", then let the provincial government legislate that stores open on Sunday may not use their full-time employees. Only business proprietors or partners, designated shareholders (>10% ownership in the business and their families) and part-time employees may be used. That way, no employee is "forced" to work Sundays (even if they want to!), and what Sunday openings there are will reduce unemployment. David Sherman -- { ihnp4!utzoo seismo!mnetor utai watmath decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave