danny@idacom.UUCP (Danny Wilson) (12/06/88)
I realize that this has been hashed over a thousand times... But exactly what are the legally correct situations that you should give out your Social Insurance Number (SIN) ?? I believe that a fairly concise description was posted about a year ago(?) E-mail responses would be nice. Thanks Danny Wilson danny@idacom.uucp IDACOM Electronics alberta!idacom!danny Edmonton, Alberta
jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) (12/09/88)
Tried to send the following message to: danny%idacom.UUCP@ncc.nexus.ca (sorry, Danny, but I had to post it, something about the ncc mailer not working) I hope these remarks will be of benefit. Basically, your SIN is a piece of ID, no more, no less. It is given to you by the Government of Canada to access various benefits that may become available to you during your lifetime. There are basically two general situations where you may be required to give your SIN, and these are: 1) in any instance where you could be compelled to give identification, eg: by the courts, police, etc. (however, your only penalty for not providing ID to the police is their ability to take you into custody and hold you until your ID can be established). In these instances, a SIN is usually requested as supporting evidence of your identification. 2) situations where you are applying for government or private benefit. UIC is obvious, so is CPP, for example. However, other situations where you may need private benefit (ie: from a private industry) is the cashing of a cheque, for instance. In neither instance above are you absolutely required to provide your SIN, provided that you are willing to take the consequences of your action, eg: the police may take you into custody, you may be refused cheque cashing priviledges, etc. However, in instances where ID is required, the SIN is not an absolute, since other ID, eg: a driver's license may be substituted without problem. Your SIN is your property, assigned to you for your lifetime, and there is no absolute compulsion to give it to anybody within the constrants mentioned above. I hope this is helpful. -- |* Herb Presley |* email : jhp@apss.apss.ab.ca |* |** Alberta Public Safety Services |** mail : 10320 - 146 St. Edmonton, |** |*** Edmonton, Alberta |*** Alberta, Canada T5N 3A2 |*** |**** Canada |**** ph : (403) 451-7151 |****
price@white.toronto.edu (Blaine Price) (12/15/88)
No doubt there will be a flurry of responses, but I'll add my $0.02 worth
anyway. To my knowledge, you are not required to give your SIN to anyone
except in situations where that person is giving you money (including
interest on investments) that the government needs to know about for
income tax purposes. Furthermore, anyone to whom you give your SIN in
this situation is required by strict penalty of law not to divulge it
to anyone but official Renenue-Canada types. The reason for the
strictness (as far as they taught us in introductory CS courses) is that
giving someone your SIN gives them a key for personal information about
you in all kinds of government data bases.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blaine Price (416) 978-5182 price@white.utoronto.ca
Department of Computer Science price@white.toronto.edu
Univ. of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 {allegra,linus,utzoo}!utcsri!price
"If it can't be expressed in figures it is not science, it is opinion."dbf@myrias.UUCP (David Ferrier) (12/15/88)
In article <723@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) writes: > There are basically two general situations where you may be required to >give your SIN, and these are... >1) in any instance where you could be compelled to give identification >2) situations where you are applying for government or private benefit. > Your SIN is your property, assigned to you for your lifetime, and there >is no absolute compulsion to give it to anybody within the constrants mentioned >above. Sorry, Herb, there are more than two occasions when you have to give out "your property". I can think of three more: 1. Whenever you open a bank account, or purchase interest-bearing negotiable instruments (bonds, deposit certificates) the institution you are dealing with requires your SIN so they can report the interest. 2. Whenever you take a job, your employer requires your SIN so the firm can report your CPP contributions. That happens to be what it is for. 3. If your spouse or ex has made support payments during the year, she or he requires your SIN so the payments can be reported properly on the supporting spouse's income tax return. I dispute the assertion that a SIN is "property". It's an identification number assigned by the government to an individual to help the government with its recordkeeping. When you were in school, was your locker number your property? Is your bank account number your property? Your VISA or Chargex account number certainly isn't your property - the banks make that quite clear. I don't understand what all the fuss is about giving out or not giving out your SIN. What does it hurt? Who really cares? Evidently some do, or this exchange wouldn't have started in the first place. However, there is such a thing as playing your SIN too close to your chest. Best regards from 608 284 725. -- David Ferrier Edmonton, Alberta alberta!myrias!dbf (403) 428 1616
cdshaw@alberta.UUCP (Chris Shaw) (12/15/88)
In article <723@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) writes: >It is given to you by the Government of Canada to >access various benefits that may become available to you during your lifetime. This part is true, but the distinction I've always seen is that the SIN is required for nine types of FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BENEFITS ONLY. It CAN be used to identify yourself to the cops, but it is not required of you to do so. Similarly with cheque cashing. You can give ANY 2 pieces of ID. The bank CANNOT require that your SIN be one of the them. This is the law about SIN's. >2) situations where you are applying for government or private benefit. UIC is > obvious, so is CPP, for example. However, other situations where you may > need private benefit (ie: from a private industry) is the cashing of a > cheque, for instance. This is misleading. SIN is required for UIC, CPP, Welfare, income tax.... but NOT to cash your paycheque. You can give it if you like, but the bank has no right to ask for it. It's also misleading to say that the SIN is "just a piece of ID". If you use it everywhere, then someone (the feds, a private investigator...) is therefore able to trace your activities without any doubt that it's you he's looking for, since every SIN is unique. I always give a fake one when asked, except when it's for tax purposes. SIN's are self-checking, so to give a fake one, switch any pair of digits 3 and 5, 4 and 6, 5 and 7 of your SIN. You can switch more than one pair. 123 456 789 (3&5) goes to 125 436 789 (4&6) goes to 125 634 789 (5&7) goes to 125 674 389 ... > Herb Presley -- Chris Shaw cdshaw@alberta.UUCP (or via watmath or ubc-vision) University of Alberta CatchPhrase: Bogus as HELL !
dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) (12/15/88)
In article <723@apss.apss.ab.ca>, jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) writes: > Your SIN is your property, assigned to you for your lifetime, and there > is no absolute compulsion to give it to anybody within the constrants mentioned > above. > Sorry, this is incorrect. The Income Tax Act, as recently amended, provides: 162(6). Every individual who has failed to provide on request his Social Insurance Number to a person required under this Act or a regulation to make an information return requiring the individual's Social Insurance Number is, except where the Minister has waived the penalty, liable to a penalty of $100 for every failure, unless (a) an application by the individual for the assignment of a Social Insurance Number was made no later than 15 days following the request by the person; and (b) such Number was provided to the person within 15 days after receiving it. The "information returns" which require the individual to supply the SIN include, inter alia, the T4 return filed by employers, and the T5 return filed by banks, stockbrokers and any other institution paying interest on deposits. (The requirement for SIN's on T5's is in the Act, but Revenue Canada announced two weeks ago that they will delay implementation of this requirement until 1989.) David Sherman The Law Society of Upper Canada Toronto -- Moderator, mail.yiddish { uunet!attcan att pyramid!utai utzoo } !lsuc!dave
mike@mks.UUCP (Mike Brookbank) (12/15/88)
In article <694@myrias.UUCP>, dbf@myrias.UUCP (David Ferrier) writes: > In article <723@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) writes: > > > There are basically two general situations where you may be required to > >give your SIN, and these are... > I just recieved a letter from Richardson Greenshields in Toronto stating that I would have to submit my SIN number because brokers now have to declare all Government Bonds, T -Bills, etc. through your SIN number. I don't know how they were supposed to report before but this seems to be a new rule. > > I don't understand what all the fuss is about giving out or > not giving out your SIN. What does it hurt? Who really > cares? Evidently some do, or this exchange wouldn't have > started in the first place. However, there is such a thing > as playing your SIN too close to your chest. > Your SIN number and the Government record that goes with it has a great deal of information about your job, salary, banking history, investing and other assorted goodies. It seems also that many people have access to this information and could put quite a substantial and potentially damaging dosier together on somebody. Most people wouldn't worry about it unless they were paranoid but there is a basic right to privacy. -- Mike Brookbank Phone: (519)884-2251 Mortice Kern Systems Inc. UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!mike 35 King St. North BIX: join mks Waterloo, Ontario N2J 2W9 CompuServe: 73260,1043
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (12/17/88)
In article <1902@pembina.UUCP> cdshaw@pembina.UUCP (Chris Shaw) writes: >SIN's are self-checking, so to give a fake one, switch any pair of digits >3 and 5, 4 and 6, 5 and 7 of your SIN... Given that this might duplicate some innocent victim's SIN, I doubt very much that this is a good idea, except perhaps in dire emergencies. Better to decline to give it (it's surprising how many forms get accepted and filed even if you just quietly leave that space blank) or supply a number that will flunk the check (if anyone ever bothers to check). -- "God willing, we will return." | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology -Eugene Cernan, the Moon, 1972 | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) (12/18/88)
In article <604@mks.UUCP> mike@mks.UUCP (Mike Brookbank) writes: >I just recieved a letter from Richardson Greenshields in Toronto stating >that I would have to submit my SIN number because brokers now have to >declare all Government Bonds, T -Bills, etc. through your SIN number. I >don't know how they were supposed to report before but this seems to be >a new rule. Yes, it's the same rule as the provision I quoted from the Income Tax Act in an earlier posting. The requirement to report T-Bill income has been in place for a couple of years, but the SIN requirement was just introduced. As I noted, no penalties will be levied by Revenue Canada for violation of this provision during 1988. -- Moderator, mail.yiddish { uunet!attcan att pyramid!utai utzoo } !lsuc!dave
soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) (12/18/88)
In article <1902@pembina.UUCP>, cdshaw@alberta.UUCP writes: > > This is misleading. SIN is required for UIC, CPP, Welfare, income tax.... but > NOT to cash your paycheque. You can give it if you like, but the bank has no > right to ask for it. Let's clarify this, if you are just cashing your paycheque and walking out of the bank with cash then no, you don't have to give your SIN, but if you want to open an account to put that money in then you MUST give your SIN because the interest that account will presumably generate is income, and therefore must be reported (by yourself and the bank) to Revenue Canada [how'd I do Dave?]. I don't know of many banks these days that will cash any cheque without an account. There was even one bank that I used to deal with were I was told that I must have accounts at every branch where I might wan't to cash a cheque (due to the business I was in at the time this could have been as many as 10 accounts).. Chris suggests giving fake SIN's when asked for one where it's not connected with tax or federal benefits, why bother, just refuse! On job applications I always fill in "to be supplied upon employment" where they ask for a SIN and I've never had a hassle over it. -- Norman Soley - Data Communications Analyst - Ontario Ministry of the Environment UUCP: uunet!attcan!lsuc!ncrcan!ontenv!soley VOICE: +1 416 323 2623 OR: soley@ontenv.UUCP " Stay smart, go cool, be happy, it's the only way to get what you want"
dave@perle.UUCP (Dave LeReverend) (12/21/88)
In article <1902@pembina.UUCP> cdshaw@pembina.UUCP (Chris Shaw) writes: >[Quotes from Herbert Presley and Chris' responses to them deleted.] >SIN's are self-checking[.] They certainly are. The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. I tried this out on my own SIN, but would never be so naive as to post my own SIN on the net :-). As an example, I used a 9-digit SIN with the following form: 123 456 78C where "C" is the check sum digit. Steps: 1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. In this example, it's: 2468 2) Double this four-digit number. 2468 x 2 = 4936 3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. 4+9+3+6 = 22 4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. 1357 5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. 1+3+5+7 = 16 6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. 22 + 16 = 38 7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. 40 8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. 40 - 38 = 2 9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. The complete SIN becomes: 123 456 782 This algorithm is useful if one wishes to verify the first 8 digits of a given SIN. I have not looked into the "strength" of this type of a check sum. If anyone out there has the knowledge and inclination to do this, I'd be interested in the result. Of course, with this algorithm it is possible to chose any 8-digits, calculate the proper check sum, and produce a "valid" 9-digit SIN. Perhaps portions of this discussion should be cross-posted to "comp.risks". > [So,] to give a fake one, switch any pair of digits >3 and 5, 4 and 6, 5 and 7 of your SIN. You can switch more than one pair. > >123 456 789 (3&5) goes to >125 436 789 (4&6) goes to >125 634 789 (5&7) goes to >125 674 389 ... Chris is saying how to re-arrange the digits of your SIN so that it will still have the same check sum. I haven't given any thought to this. If anyone cares to, I'd like to see if Chris' assertion can be proven based on the above nine steps. David LeReverend ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My grade 12 math teacher saw this algorithm in a government-published book of math problems, so I assume that there are no rules against my telling other people about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I believe the aliens have to take a physical form on this planet. So why not one with 13 channels?" From Joe Jackson's "TV Age" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
paul@hcr.UUCP (Paul Jackson) (12/21/88)
In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: >... The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. >Steps: >1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. >2) Double this four-digit number. >3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. >4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. >5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. >6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. >7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. >8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. >9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. >David LeReverend This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would it?)
clewis@ecicrl.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (12/22/88)
In article <723@apss.apss.ab.ca> jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herbert Presley) writes: > I hope these remarks will be of benefit. Basically, your SIN is a piece >of ID, no more, no less. SINs are particularly crummy ID. They've been recycling numbers for over 10 years - and most of the time they don't know for sure that the original holder is dead. Secondly, a store would have a particularly difficult time trying to track someone using a SIN number (or an OHIP number for that matter). CPP and Revenue Canada have pretty strict guidelines as to who can use their files (eg: nobody except employees of the departments dealing with them). Record spills notwithstanding (which usually turn out to be disgruntled civil servants) it's pretty difficult getting anywhere near them. Secondly, except for taxation or CPP requirements, you are not required to produce your SIN number for anything. Many companies use them for ID numbers, but nowadays they can't insist on them, and will invent some other number if necessary. The risks to *you* of some non-government agency (or non-CPP or RC) being able to use your SIN (or OHIP) number to do a number on you are pretty slim. The legitimate concern appears to be "big brother" style government using linked governmental databases. Considering the total mess that most of the major databases are in, the likelyhood of linkage short of multi-mega-buck software efforts is also pretty slim. Believe it or not, the *biggest* danger is letting anyone know your name, birthdate or address. These are used *far* more often for "linking" than exotic things like SIN's or OHIP numbers. The biggest danger to your privacy comes from insurance companies, adjusters and their detective agencies. Police and other governmental agencies don't even come close. How do I know? I was part of the Ontario Royal Commission studying this back in '78. -- Chris Lewis, Markham, Ontario, Canada {uunet!attcan,utgpu,yunexus,utzoo}!lsuc!ecicrl!clewis Ferret Mailing list: ...!lsuc!gate!eci386!ferret-request (or lsuc!gate!eci386!clewis or lsuc!clewis)
hwt@bnr-public.uucp (Henry Troup) (12/23/88)
The test may not work for landed immigrants and/or student visas. People whose work certification in Canada is provisional are issued SINs that begin and end with 9. I've never had the opportunity to verify the algorithm with one. utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bnr-public | BNR is not | All that evil requires hwt@bnr (BITNET/NETNORTH) | responsible for | is that good men do (613) 765-2337 (Voice) | my opinions | nothing.
root@helios.toronto.edu (Operator) (12/23/88)
In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: > >They certainly are. The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. I tried this out on my own >SIN > [...] >9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. > I tried this on my own SIN number, which is 15 years old and which has never been rejected or changed, and the algorithm didn't work. Is it possible that, like driver's licences, they make an adjustment for the holder's sex, as an additional check? (On Ontario driver's licences, the holder's birthdate appears within the licence number, and they add 5 to the first digit of the month if the holder is female; e.g. my month of birth is July, digits are 07, so on my licence it appears as 57). -- Ruth Milner UUCP - {uunet,pyramid}!utai!helios.physics!sysruth Systems Manager BITNET - sysruth@utorphys U. of Toronto INTERNET - sysruth@helios.physics.utoronto.ca Physics/Astronomy/CITA Computing Consortium
dave@perle.UUCP (Dave LeReverend) (12/23/88)
In article <4367@hcr.UUCP> paul@compiler.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: [A summarized version of the (slightly) ambiguously-stated algorithm for calculating the ninth digit of a SIN has been deleted.] > This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly >up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would >it?) "dc"? Direct current? District of Columbia? Oh, yeah! That's the crazy RPN alleged calculator program. I gave up on THAT during my first week on the system. Give me a solar-powered TI any day. Well, before I posted the original article, I had only tried this algorithm on my own SIN, and I got the proper result. So far, I've heard from two people on The Net who have tried this algorithm on their own SIN, and both of them reported that it did NOT work. This does not mean that it did not work for anyone on The Net; perhaps it worked for many people, and they just didn't bother posting a positive result. Two of my co-workers were trusting enough to loan me their SINs (as if I don't have enough of my own :-), and everything came out properly. I did learn one thing from this process; if the result of step 6 is a multiple of 10, then the last digit in the SIN should be a zero. I believe that the algorithm which I posted is correct. No-one has shown me a valid SIN which cannot be verified in the manner I described. Perhaps the confused parties could e-mail me their SIN, and I could look into things further. Believe me; I really don't care how much you invested in RSP's last year. I also noticed something about Chris Shaw's method for altering SINs. He suggests switching the following pairs of digits: Those at positions 4 and 6. Those at positions 3 and 5. Those at positions 5 and 7. The algorithm which I posted indicated that ANY of the digits in odd-numbered positions can be re-arranged in any way, and the check-sum will not change. Things get complicated with the even-position digits, because the "times 2" step can cause carries. It seems to me that the digits in positions 3 and 5, as well as those in positions 5 and 7 CANNOT just be switched in an arbitrary manner. Enough of this; I've got a spec. to write. David LeReverend ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This summer, come on out to Saskatchewan and ... sit around." From a tourism commercial by The Royal Canadian Air Farce ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
erlebach@csri.toronto.edu (Beverly Erlebacher) (12/23/88)
I needed to validate SINs for an employee benefits system I wrote some
years ago. I phoned Employment and Immigration and they mailed me the
specs on the SIN check digit scheme. I don't know where I've put that
document, but I can extract the algorithm from my code. The comments
seem to preserve some of the original wording.
1. Sum the odd-ordered digits except the 9th. (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th digits)
2. For each even-ordered digit (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th), double the digit,
and add together the digits of the result. Then sum these results.
3. Add the totals from steps 1 and 2. Subtract the sum from the next
larger multiple of 10. The result is the check digit - it should
match the ninth digit of the SIN.
For example: validate the SIN 123-789-456
1. 1 + 3 + 8 + 4 = 16
2. 2 + 2 = 4
7 + 7 = 14 -> 5
9 + 9 = 18 -> 9
5 + 5 = 10 -> 1
4 + 5 + 9 + 1 = 19
3. 16 + 19 = 35
40 - 35 = 5
Since 5 does not equal 6, this is not a valid SIN (surprise!).
This is an ordinary simple check digit scheme. It is intended to detect
the most common keying errors (1-digit errors and the transposition of
adjacent digits), rather than to catch intentionally bogus numbers.
--------
Beverly Erlebacher erlebach@turing.toronto.edu
Proceeds of this posting to the Society for Rehabilitation of RPG Programmerswside@maccs.McMaster.CA (Dawn Whiteside) (12/23/88)
In article <4367@hcr.UUCP> paul@compiler.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: >In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: >>... The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >>determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. >>[ 9 Steps deleted ] >>David LeReverend > This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly >up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would >it?) My SIN didn't check out with this algorithm, either. I think that the problem is that the ODD digits, not the even ones, should be doubled. I've also heard that the first digit of the SIN indicates the province where you applied for the card. My SIN starts with '4' for Ontario. I have a friend whose SIN starts with '6' for Manitoba. Can anyone shoot this theory down? -- Dawn Whiteside -- decimal point signature under construction caution: AIs working overhead
kevinc@auvax.UUCP (Kevin "auric" Crocker) (12/23/88)
In article <420@perle.UUCP>, dave@perle.UUCP (Dave LeReverend) writes: >In article <1902@pembina.UUCP> cdshaw@pembina.UUCP (Chris Shaw) writes: >>SIN's are self-checking[.] > > They certainly are. The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be > determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. I tried this out on my own > 1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. > 2) Double this four-digit number. > 3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. > 4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. > 5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. > 6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. > 7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. > 8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. > 9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. > > David LeReverend This algorithm is really interesting, but it doesn't work with my SIN. I only have two odd numbers in my SIN - so what does this make me. Totally unique - or have I been singled out as a dangerous character?? Inews inews .news ..ews ...ws ....s the line eater strikes again!!! kevin -- Kevin "Auric" Crocker @Athabasca University {alberta ncc}auvax!kevinc
mcp@ziebmef.uucp (Marc Plumb) (12/23/88)
In article <694@myrias.UUCP> dbf@myrias.UUCP (David Ferrier) writes: >Sorry, Herb, there are more than two occasions when you have to >give out "your property". I can think of three more: > >1. Whenever you open a bank account, or purchase interest-bearing >negotiable instruments (bonds, deposit certificates) the institution >you are dealing with requires your SIN so they can report the interest. There must be some loophole in this. I know neither the bank at which I have an account nor the one at which I recently cashed some CSB's has a SIN for me. >I dispute the assertion that a SIN is "property". It's an >identification number assigned by the government to an >individual to help the government with its recordkeeping. >When you were in school, was your locker number your property? >Is your bank account number your property? Your VISA or >Chargex account number certainly isn't your property - the >banks make that quite clear. The thing is that these things expire. If I were to re-apply for a replacement SuperDuperChargeACard, I'd get a new card number out of the hat. The SIN is a great thing to play Big Brother games with, since it's guaranteed not to change. But the only reason the government keeps records on me is to catch me if I try to cheat on taxes. So helping them keep these records verges on self-incrimination. (To be precise, if I *am* up to something, helping them catch me is self-incrimination.) So I try, pretty hard, to make their lives difficult. Not (necessarily :-}) becasue I have something to hide, but becasue I'm not required to prove I don't. >I don't understand what all the fuss is about giving out or >not giving out your SIN. What does it hurt? Who really >cares? Evidently some do, or this exchange wouldn't have >started in the first place. However, there is such a thing >as playing your SIN too close to your chest. Maybe I've just been reading too much comp.risks, but I simply don't trust institutional databases. Currently, I have two pieces of identification: a birth certificate and a passport. The passport I find useful, and I don't know how to get a birth out of the records, so I guess I'll have to live with it. (Yes, I also hold a few membership cards for student organisations, but most of those can be forged with a photocopier and coloured cardboard.) "Paranoia makes the world go 'round - why do you keep going if they aren't after you?" :-) -- -- -Colin
sph@apss.ab.ca (Shaun Hammond) (12/23/88)
In article <1735@maccs.McMaster.CA>, wside@maccs.McMaster.CA (Dawn Whiteside) writes: > I've also heard that the first digit of the SIN indicates the province where > you applied for the card. My SIN starts with '4' for Ontario. I have a friend > whose SIN starts with '6' for Manitoba. Can anyone shoot this theory down? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > -- > Dawn Whiteside > -- Yo! Mine was issued in Alberta - it starts with a "6".
gonnason@enel.UCalgary.CA (12/24/88)
There definitely is some truth to the rumour that the first
number of your social insurance number indicates where you first
applied for the number. At one time, one company I worked for
required the SIN number of each employee working on a particular
job on the service order (We were paid by a base salary plus a
percentage of the total service order bill).
From what I can recall, the SIN numbers of our employees
all began with a six, a four, or a two. It didn't take us long
to compare notes, and realize that everyone that got their SIN
number on the west side of the Ontario/Manitoba border had a
number that began with a six. A lot of the employees from Quebec
seemed to have numbers that began with a two. There was a definite
trend, but I can't say that the system was absolute.
The "fact" that the SIN reflected where a person "came from"
was taken for granted. I recall one particularly redneck manager
I worked for in Halifax (he was originally from Alberta) insisting
that he had to get transferred back west so his kids wouldn't be
issued SIN numbers in the Maritimes... (I have long since left
this particular company, don't bother flaming them/me...)
I don't know if the SIN still reflects a regional origin
or not. But, at least several years ago, the evidence was
pretty strong that it did.
"Cheap chips sink ships" - gonnason@enel.UCalgary.CA
( University of Calgary Electrical Engineering )dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) (12/25/88)
In article <1988Dec23.024016.22054@ziebmef.uucp> mcp@ziebmef.UUCP (Colin Plumb - borrowed account) writes: >There must be some loophole in this. I know neither the bank at which >I have an account nor the one at which I recently cashed some CSB's >has a SIN for me. They will need one in 1989. See the amendment to the Income Tax Act which I posted recently. >The thing is that these things expire. If I were to re-apply for >a replacement SuperDuperChargeACard, I'd get a new card number out of >the hat. The SIN is a great thing to play Big Brother games with, since >it's guaranteed not to change. You can get your credit card number changed (I had our CIBC VISA number changed when I asked for a due date change), but normally one doesn't. Most of our cards have had the same number for many years, through many expiries and renewals. >But the only reason the government keeps records on me is to catch me if >I try to cheat on taxes. So helping them keep these records verges on >self-incrimination. (To be precise, if I *am* up to something, helping >them catch me is self-incrimination.) So I try, pretty hard, to make >their lives difficult. Not (necessarily :-}) becasue I have something >to hide, but becasue I'm not required to prove I don't. The same government also wants to pay you your CPP, and UI if you lose your job -- another good reason for keeping records on you. Anyway, what's wrong with self-incrimination? David Sherman -- Moderator, mail.yiddish { uunet!attcan att pyramid!utai utzoo } !lsuc!dave
nmm@apss.ab.ca (Neil McCulloch) (12/25/88)
In article <1988Dec24.222620.22203@lsuc.uucp>, dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) writes: > Anyway, what's wrong with self-incrimination? Is there any other kind of incrimination? neil
thomson@hub.toronto.edu (Brian Thomson) (12/27/88)
Regarding the first-digit-indicates-origin theory: I got mine in B.C. It begins with a "7". -- Brian Thomson, CSRI Univ. of Toronto utcsri!uthub!thomson, thomson@hub.toronto.edu
dbf@myrias.UUCP (David Ferrier) (12/29/88)
>>But the only reason the government keeps records on me is to catch me if >>I try to cheat on taxes. So helping them keep these records verges on >>self-incrimination. (To be precise, if I *am* up to something, helping >>them catch me is self-incrimination.) So I try, pretty hard, to make >>their lives difficult. Not (necessarily :-}) becasue I have something >>to hide, but becasue I'm not required to prove I don't. So we have developed another modern day fear, that of the power of Administrative Voodoo: if someone obtains our number (instead of fingernail parings and hair), puts it into a computer (instead of a doll) they can then cause us all manner of unspeakable financial torment (instead of physical torment). If we can only keep them from getting our secret number, we will be protected from the power of Administrative Voodoo. So we hide our number, as tribemen hide their faces from the photographer who might capture their souls, and think therefore that we are safe. -- David Ferrier Edmonton, Alberta alberta!myrias!dbf (403) 428 1616
manis@grads.cs.ubc.ca (Vincent Manis) (12/30/88)
OK, I guess we'll have to gather data. *My* SIN was also obtained in
BC (in 1967, if that makes any difference), and it also starts with a
7. I remember a piece of folklore which says that the first 3 digits
indicates the Canada Employment Centre at which you applied for your
SIN, but I can't prove that.
Incidentally, unless there is a ``SIN Fuehrer'' in Ottawa who is
responsible for allocating numbers, some geographical system of this
sort would have to be used.
____________ Vincent Manis | manis@cs.ubc.ca
___ \ _____ The Invisible City of Kitezh | manis@cs.ubc.cdn
____ \ ____ Department of Computer Science | manis%cs.ubc@relay.cs.net
___ /\ ___ University of British Columbia | uunet!ubc-cs!manis
__ / \ __ Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1W5 | (604) 228-2394
_ / __ \ _ "Contiguous file allocation is the storage of a file on a
____________ contiguous place, and chained file allocation is not."
-- student answer on exam
kevinc@auvax.UUCP (Kevin "auric" Crocker) (01/04/89)
In article <1735@maccs.McMaster.CA>, wside@maccs.McMaster.CA (Dawn Whiteside) writes: > In article <4367@hcr.UUCP> paul@compiler.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: > you applied for the card. My SIN starts with '4' for Ontario. I have a friend > whose SIN starts with '6' for Manitoba. Can anyone shoot this theory down? Sorry Dawn, mine starts with a '6' and I applied for it in Alberta many moons ago. Kevin -- Kevin "Auric" Crocker @Athabasca University {alberta ncc}auvax!kevinc
4203_5067@uwovax.uwo.ca (Mike MS D.) (01/04/89)
In article <4367@hcr.UUCP>, paul@hcr.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: > In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: >>... The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >>determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. >>Steps: >>1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. >>2) Double this four-digit number. >>3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. >>4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. >>5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. >>6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. >>7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. >>8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. >>9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. >>David LeReverend ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly > up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would > it?) Fortunately, this algorithm, which happened to be one of my second year programming assignments -- using VAX MACRO assembler!!, worked for my SIN. The purpose of the assignment was not to prove that the algorithm works for all SINs, but to give us the challenge of formatting the output (using assembly lang.!!) that shows each step of the numerical calculations ( steps 1 to 9 above). And we also had to show, by choosing random SINs, that our program was capable of "identifing" correct SINs from the incorrect ones. If my TA had known your SIN, which presumably is correct, and used it to test the "correctness" of my program, which most likely would have outputed "INCORRECT SIN", I would have gotten a "D" ( non-working program!). Miky_the_Dragon.
4203_5067@uwovax.uwo.ca (Mike MS D.) (01/04/89)
In article <4367@hcr.UUCP>, paul@hcr.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: > In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: >>... The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >>determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. >>Steps: >>1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. >>2) Double this four-digit number. >>3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. >>4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. >>5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. >>6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. >>7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. >>8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. >>9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. >>David LeReverend > This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly > up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would > it?)
4203_5067@uwovax.uwo.ca (Mike MS D.) (01/04/89)
In article <4367@hcr.UUCP>, paul@hcr.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: > In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: >>... The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >>determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. >>Steps: >>1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. >>2) Double this four-digit number. >>3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. >>4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. >>5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. >>6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. >>7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. >>8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. >>9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. >>David LeReverend --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly > up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would > it?) Fortunately this algorithm, which happened to be one of my second year programming assignments -- using VAX MACRO!!, worked for my SIN. The purpose of the assignment was not to show that the algorithm indeed works, but rather to give the class the challenge of formating the output (using assembly language!!) that shows each step of the calculation process, simillar to steps 1 to 9 above. And everybody also had to show, by choosing random SINs, that her/his program was capable of "identifying" correct SINs from the incorrect ones. If my TA had known your SIN, which presumably is legal, and user it to test the "correctness" of my program, which most likely would have outputed "ILLEGAL SIN", he would have given me a "D" ( non-working program!). Miky_The_Dragon.
4203_5067@uwovax.uwo.ca (Mike MS D.) (01/04/89)
In article <4367@hcr.UUCP>, paul@hcr.UUCP (Paul Jackson) writes: > In article <420@perle.UUCP> dave@perle.UUCP (David LeReverend) writes: >>... The last (ninth) digit is a "check sum", and it can be >>determined using the 9 simple steps shown below. >>Steps: >>1) Use the even digits to form a four-digit number. >>3) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 2. >>4) Use the odd digits (but not "C") to form another four-digit number. >>5) Sum the digits of the number determined in step 4. >>6) Add the results from steps 3 and 5. >>7) From the result of step 6, determine the next highest multiple of 10. >>8) Find the difference between the results from steps 6 and 7. >>9) The result of step 8 becomes the last (ninth) digit in the SIN. >>David LeReverend ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This algorithm did NOT work for my SIN (my arithmetic is admittedly > up to the usual standards in this society, but dc wouldn't lie to me, would > it?) Fortunately this algorithm, which happened to be one of my second year programming assignments -- using VAX MACRO !!, worked for my SIN. The purpose of the assignment was not to show that the algorithm works for all SINs, but to give the class the challenge of formatting the output (using assembly lang.!!) that shows each step of the numerical calculations, simmilar to steps 1 to 9 above. And everybody also had to show, by choosing random SINs, that her/his program was capable of "identifing" correct SINs from the incorrect ones. If my TA had known your SIN, which presumably is legal and used it to test the "correctness" of my program, which most likely would have outputed "ILLEGAL SIN", he would have given a "D" ( non-working program!). signed by: Miky_the_Dragon. Have a nice day please!
cebly@ai.toronto.edu (Craig Boutilier) (01/04/89)
In article <405@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> gonnason@enel.UCalgary.CA writes: > > There definitely is some truth to the rumour that the first > number of your social insurance number indicates where you first > applied for the number. I'll fan the flames a little: I'm from Halifax, but I applied for my SIN in Edmonton while spending the summer there as a kid. While all of my friends in Nouvelle Ecosse had SINs that began with "1", mine started with a "6". ceb
mshiels@tmsoft.uucp (Michael A. Shiels) (01/06/89)
Here is the formula I know and use! For example SIN 12345678x Where x is the checkdigit You take the first, third, fifth, seventh digits and add them together. Then you take 2*second and add the individual digits of the result and add them to the sum. of the above. Do the same with the fourth, sixth, and eighth digits and you then take the last digit of this sum and when added to the check digit 'x' should end in a 0. For example: 1+3+5+7=16 2*2=4->20 4*2=8->28 6*2=12->31 8*2=16->38 Therefore the check digit must be a 2. It worked with mine and everyone I know.
trivia@watcsc.uucp (Dave Nuttall) (01/09/89)
I'm looking for the first digits in the SIN's that have been issued in: Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. Could someone who knows the numbers involved please e-mail me the information. -- David Nuttall trivia@watcsc.UUCP "You casually pull open the door that the thief has been working on, unsuccessfully, for the last five minutes."