kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) (08/15/89)
In article <1989Aug13.204235.18993@alberta.uucp> gilles@alberta.uucp (Gilles Simon Dionne) writes: In article <KIM.89Aug12020709@watsup.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: >I once got a close look at the French-ized version of Logo. It was >absolutely incomprehensible. Perhaps, you can't understand French ? This does make it much harder to comprehend!! :-) I forgot to mention that French is my maternal language (and, yes, I am fluent in it, written and oral)!!! >Perhaps the French have gone on with their language conversion, but if >they have, they are simply heading for a dead end, because no one else ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >in the world will use that language but them, not when even the >Japanese use the English versions. >-- Why? Do you care if your favorite software package is written in C, Pascal or Modula II or directly in assembler ? You don't see what's inside so what is the difference to you? I believe it is the same for "French" or "English" programming languages. If they write the "best" software on the market, why should they have problems selling it? Maintenance by local people you say? Hmm. My research bias shows itself here. I was thinking of papers published in journals, say, on artificial intelligence. If some research group decided to use a French version of Lisp then I would have difficulty understanding their program. Of course, the same happens if that group wrote the program in a completely different language that they invented. The point I was trying to make is that to communicate, we might want to keep to some sort of language/conceptual framework standard. -- Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.edu Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
edlee@gandalf.UUCP (Ed Lee) (08/21/89)
Although this may have nothing to do with programming languages, it has some
views that applies here.
Quoting CCITT recommendation E.180, Characteristics of various telephone tones:
Administrations are reminded of the advantages of standardizing as far
as possible supervisory tones, so that subscribers and operators may
quickly recognize any tone transmitted, of whatever origin
The idea of CCITT, EIA (RS-xxx such as RS-232), IEEE, etc... is to allow us to
be able to talk to one another. Networks such as the one you are using to read
this here message (or garbage, depending on your point of view) cannot exist
without such standards. Therefore, it is an excellent idea for computer
languages to be standardized also. Take Fortran for example; I know of WATFOR,
WATFIV (several versions and levels), Fortran 4+, Fortran 77, ANSI Fortran, ...
which are all similar in concept but different in their own unique ways. I'm
tired of having some stupid silly trivial syntax errors pop-up on me during a
compile telling me that so and so statement makes no sense!!
I will admit that my French is about as good as your Martian (if it exists);
but, if anyone is interested in introducing into the computer market such a
thing as French Fortran (or any_language Fortran), I would personally wish
him/her luck. (S)He is likely to loose a lot of money unless (s)he can come
up with some "GOD" program (like Lotus 123, heaven forbid!!) that is written
in this "new" language and everyone wants a copy of it such that they can do
their own ... whatever.
As for the original topic which triggered this particular discussion (ie.
Canada's culture), I don't think I can remember all the cultures that I have
encountered here in Canada; however, I will assure you one thing: each
individual culture is being preserved and will survive in its own unique way.
So I do sincerely hope that this bit of bitching will end here. If you still
want some complaints, I do have one. Arret does not exist if French. I'm
told that France uses STOP for stop-signs so why is Quebec different. I find
that Quebec like to have their trivial differences with .... everyone!!
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EdLee@gandalf.UUCP e-mail: lsuc!nrcaer!dgbt!gandalf!edlee
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The opinions expressed here does not belong to anyone and does not exist.
How's that for a disclaimer?giguere@aries5.uucp (Eric Giguere) (08/29/89)
In article <2587@gandalf.UUCP> edlee@gandalf.UUCP (Ed Lee) writes: > If you still >want some complaints, I do have one. Arret does not exist if French. I'm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sure it does. Look it up in any French-language dictionary. >told that France uses STOP for stop-signs so why is Quebec different. I find >that Quebec like to have their trivial differences with .... everyone!! Oh, just because the French do it, the Quebecois must do it. That's silly. I don't think anyone here on the net claims that Canadian English == American English or Canadian English == British English so why should Canadian French == French French??? Answer: it doesn't!!! The French spoken in Quebec is one of several different kinds of French spoken within Canada and is separate from that spoken in France, Belgium, Switzerland, etc. Not only is the language different, the culture that surrounds it is different. If the French choose to use STOP (a valid word... French and English steal a lot of words from each other) and the Quebecois ARRET, what's the problem? Vive la difference! (This discussion is almost as silly as the one where people used Belgium as an example of a peaceful bilingual country.) Eric Giguere 268 Phillip St #CL-46 For the curious: it's French ("jee-gair") Waterloo, Ontario N2L 6G9 Bitnet : GIGUERE at WATCSG (519) 746-6565 Internet: giguere@aries5.UWaterloo.ca "Nothing but urges from HELL!!"
kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) (08/30/89)
In article <422@maytag.waterloo.edu> giguere@aries5.uucp (Eric Giguere) writes: In article <2587@gandalf.UUCP> edlee@gandalf.UUCP (Ed Lee) writes: > If you still >want some complaints, I do have one. Arret does > not exist if French. I'm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sure it does. Look it up in any French-language dictionary. > told that France uses STOP for stop-signs so why is Quebec > different. I find that Quebec like to have their trivial > differences with .... everyone!! Oh, just because the French do it, the Quebecois must do it. That's silly. I don't think anyone here on the net claims that Canadian English == American English If the French choose to use STOP (a valid word... French and English steal a lot of words from each other) and the Quebecois ARRET, what's the problem? Vive la difference! The problem is that ARRET (while it is indeed a valid word) is a NOUN. In French (unlike English), one does not usually use a NOUN as a VERB (imperative form). STOP is indeed the imperative form of a verb (stopper), and so it makes sense to order someone to stop. The comparison with English (Canadian vs American) is flawed, since in English it is quite common for people to use nouns as verbs and vice versa. Also, there is no definitive standard for English, while there is one for the French language. -- T. Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.{edu|cdn} kim@watsup.uwaterloo.ca {uunet|utzoo|utai|decvax}watmath!watsup!kim Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
giguere@aries5.uucp (Eric Giguere) (08/30/89)
In article <KIM.89Aug30040428@watsup.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: >In article <422@maytag.waterloo.edu> giguere@aries5.uucp (Eric Giguere) writes: >The problem is that ARRET (while it is indeed a valid word) is a NOUN. >In French (unlike English), one does not usually use a NOUN as a VERB >(imperative form). STOP is indeed the imperative form of a verb >(stopper), and so it makes sense to order someone to stop. The way I look at it is that the sign is identifying "un arret", so you have to stop. I don't think you need it to be in a verb form. >The comparison with English (Canadian vs American) is flawed, since in >English it is quite common for people to use nouns as verbs and vice >versa. Also, there is no definitive standard for English, while there >is one for the French language. The comparison is just as valid. For some reason people expect the French spoken in Canada to be the same as the French spoken in France. This is an unreasonable expectation. Also, the "definitive standard" you're referring to is probably L'Academie in France, right? Well, the Academie is NOT a standard outside of France. Quebec has l'Office de la langue francaise and a couple of other organizations devoted to the preservation of the (Canadian/Quebecois) French language. Dictionaries of Canadian French also exist. Eric Giguere 268 Phillip St #CL-46 For the curious: it's French ("jee-gair") Waterloo, Ontario N2L 6G9 Bitnet : GIGUERE at WATCSG (519) 746-6565 Internet: giguere@aries5.UWaterloo.ca "Nothing but urges from HELL!!"
riehm@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Carl Riehm) (08/31/89)
In article <422@maytag.waterloo.edu> giguere@aries5.waterloo.edu (Eric Giguere) writes: >.... I don't think anyone here on the net claims that > > Canadian English == American English > > or > > Canadian English == British English > > so why should > > Canadian French == French French??? > Here here!! I would be (and on occasion have been) angry if someone implied or said that somehow the version of English that I speak is inferior to that of the British. Unfortunately there are many Quebecois (although fewer that there used to be) who *do* feel that their version of the French language is inferior. Carl Riehm.
danny@idacom.UUCP (Danny Wilson) (09/06/89)
In article <422@maytag.waterloo.edu>, giguere@aries5.uucp (Eric Giguere) writes: > In article <2587@gandalf.UUCP> edlee@gandalf.UUCP (Ed Lee) writes: > > >told that France uses STOP for stop-signs so why is Quebec different. I find > >that Quebec like to have their trivial differences with .... everyone!! Just to confuse the issue some more, Japan (a place where very few english words are used) uses "STOP" on the front of the red octagonal sign. At the same time, they use the Japanese characters for "tomare" on the road (using paint) and on the red triangluar signs. -- Danny Wilson IDACOM Electronics danny@idacom.uucp Edmonton, Alberta {att, watmath, ubc-cs}!alberta!idacom!danny C A N A D A