robertfe@microsoft.UUCP (Robert Ferguson 2/1073) (09/24/89)
In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP> leonard@iros1.UUCP (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >In article <1989Sep6.222038.2707@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> gbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gideon Sheps) writes: >>and was therefor subject to alteraton long before >>they had the nerve to re-enact the Nurenburg laws. > >Si c'est une plaisanterie, elle n'est pas tres drole. > >Si c'est dit serieusement, je crois qu'il y a des excuses qui sont >dues. Ou aux Quebecois ou alors aux survivants, juifs et autres, de ces >lois. Je crois egalement que si cette attitude est courante dans les >universites du Canada Anglais, si on peut faire ce genre d'affirmation >en toute quietude sans eprouver le moindre besoin de se justifier, sans >y provoquer la moindre protestation et meme dans l'approbation generale, >il y a quelque chose de vraiment pourri dans ce pays. > >Universite de Montreal - IRO Nicolas Leonard >leonard@iro.umontreal.ca >leonard%iro.umontreal.ca@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu >uunet!utai!mcgill-vision!iros1!leonard [I'm sure you'll excuse my writing this in English. I am bilingual, but just as I suspect you feel more confortable writing in French, I feel more confortable in English. If this is a problem, let me know, and I'll translate.] Don't you see at least a little bit of a parallel between the Nuremberg Laws and the current situation in Quebec? We have a situation where an identifiable group of people, formerly integrated into society, have some of their civil rights removed because they are members of that group. It is wrong to treat *anyone* as a second class citizen, no matter how "noble" the reason or cause. I'm sure the Nazis thought they were operating from the highest principles in doing what they did. In case you doubt my _bona fides_ to discuss this, I was born in Montreal, lived there for the first 20 years of my life, am fluent in French, and am just as much a Quebecois as you are. Execpt that, by law, I am a second class citizen in my own home. --------- Robert Ferguson ...uunet!microsoft!robertfe
salomon@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dan Salomon) (09/25/89)
In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP> leonard@iros1.UUCP (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >In article <1989Sep6.222038.2707@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> gbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gideon Sheps) writes: >>and was therefor subject to alteraton long before >>they had the nerve to re-enact the Nurenburg laws. > >Si c'est une plaisanterie, elle n'est pas tres drole. > >Si c'est dit serieusement, je crois qu'il y a des excuses qui sont >dues. Ou aux Quebecois ou alors aux survivants, juifs et autres, de ces >lois. In Quebec, shop owners get their windows smashed for posting signs in English. Doesn't that sound a bit like Krystalnacht? I have been punched out for speaking English in Montreal, and my 65-year-old aunt has been spit on for speaking English. Perhaps an apology for the remark is due to the Jews and other concentration camp survivors for belittling their suffering at the hands of the NAZIs, but the attitude of the Quebecois is still racism, even if they aren't dragging the English out of their homes and shooting them. >Je crois egalement que si cette attitude est courante dans les >universites du Canada Anglais, si on peut faire ce genre d'affirmation >en toute quietude sans eprouver le moindre besoin de se justifier, sans >y provoquer la moindre protestation et meme dans l'approbation generale, >il y a quelque chose de vraiment pourri dans ce pays. There is indeed something rotten in Canada, and it is that French Quebecers are protesting in the streets to prevent English Quebecers from using their language, even indoors. The sad thing is that the square-headed Quebec language bigots don't realize that even if all the English leave Quebec, and even if Quebec separates from Canada, French Quebecers will still have to fight to keep their language alive. The Danish, the Dutch, and the Finn's are all fighting to keep their languages from being replaced by English and they have NO borders with English speaking countries, they are NOT surrounded by 250 million English speaking North Americans, and their largest trading partners are NOT English speaking countries. I make no apologies for posting this in English.
derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) (09/26/89)
In article <1989Sep24.234330.5492@ccu.umanitoba.ca> salomon@ccu.UManitoba.CA (Dan Salomon) writes: >In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP> leonard@iros1.UUCP (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >>In article <1989Sep6.222038.2707@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> gbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gideon Sheps) writes: > >In Quebec, shop owners get their windows smashed for posting signs in >English. Doesn't that sound a bit like Krystalnacht? Certaines personnes ayant des magasins affichant en anglais ont ete effectivement victimes de tels incidents. Ils avaient defie la loi, et le gouvernement n'osait pas l'enforcer. Ce sont la des incidents regrettables. Le gouvernement du Quebec a laisse impunis de nombreux violateurs de ses lois (illegalites dans l'ecole et l'affichage). Les Nazis auraient ete sans doute plus vigilants, non? Plusieurs nationalistes contrairement a ces commercants ont ete mis en prison en 1970 sans proces (lors de la crise du FLQ). Le meritaient-ils? Dans une societe avec certaines querelles politiques, il y aura des incidents deplorables. Est-ce que je cherche a faire un parallele entre Trudeau et d'autre personalites desagreables? C'est de lui directement que des Gerald Godin ont ete victimes pas de quelques voyous ou criminels. >I have been >punched out for speaking English in Montreal, and my 65-year-old aunt >has been spit on for speaking English. On m'a crache dessus par des jeunes de mon age parce que j'etais un frog apprenant l'anglais dans un camp de vacances en Ontario. J'ai tellement aime l'experience que je suis revenu en Ontario, dans la ville-reine. Plusieurs personnes de generations plus agees ont participe ou ete victimes de batailles dans les rues liees a des incidents linguistiques ou raciaux. Je desapprouve de tels incidents racistes qui existent soit dit en passant entre d'autres groupes et dans d'autres regions. Et les francophones et les anglophones peuvent etre instigateurs. Ce genre d'anecdote ne devrait pas avoir sa place dans un tel debat. >Perhaps an apology for the >remark is due to the Jews and other concentration camp survivors for >belittling their suffering at the hands of the NAZIs, but the attitude >of the Quebecois is still racism, even if they aren't dragging the >English out of their homes and shooting them. L'attitude des Quebecois envers les Anglais est tres tolerante. Il n'y a qu'a voir l'ensemble des services sociaux des services de sante et d'education disponibles pour la clientele anglophone, une situation fort enviable. Imposer des limites d'expression a des minorites linguistiques par lois gouvernementales n'est pas necessairement du racisme quand a moi. Le racisme, pour moi consiste a avoir des idees preconcues non valides envers un groupe qu'on associe a une race (dans le sens plus etendu que vous utilisez, on peut penser a un groupe linguistique ou religieux). On associerait par example aux anglophones certains defauts que des francophones n'auraient pas. Les Quebecois sont insecures quand a l'avenir de leur langue, le francais, c'est pourquoi ils utilisent des moyens parfois vigoureux pour la proteger. > >>Je crois egalement que si cette attitude est courante dans les >>universites du Canada Anglais, si on peut faire ce genre d'affirmation >>en toute quietude sans eprouver le moindre besoin de se justifier, sans >>y provoquer la moindre protestation et meme dans l'approbation generale, >>il y a quelque chose de vraiment pourri dans ce pays. > >There is indeed something rotten in Canada, and it is that French >Quebecers are protesting in the streets to prevent English Quebecers >from using their language, even indoors. > >The sad thing is that the square-headed Quebec language bigots don't >realize that even if all the English leave Quebec, and even if Quebec >separates from Canada, French Quebecers will still have to fight to >keep their language alive. The Danish, the Dutch, and the Finn's are >all fighting to keep their languages from being replaced by English and >they have NO borders with English speaking countries, they are NOT >surrounded by 250 million English speaking North Americans, and their >largest trading partners are NOT English speaking countries. L'anglais quand elle n'est pas la langue premiere au Commonwealth (blanc) et aux E.U. est la langue seconde de choix dans le monde pour des raisons historiques (puissances passee de l'Angleterre et actuelle des E.U.) 1: peu de francophones desirent mettre les anglophones a la porte. Ce qu'ils peuvent vouloir, c'est garder eleve le pourcentage de la population francophone. Les moyens raisonnables pour ce faire, sont de se reproduire, d'avoir des immigrants francophones, d'inciter fortement les immigrants a s'adapter au francais. Le troisieme plan fonctionne plutot mal, mais mieux qu'auparavant en forcant les enfants a aller a l'ecole francaise. Ce que vous dites ici est faux. Je suis tout a fait conscient des problemes que vous mentionnez. La difference avec un Quebec souverain reside dans le fait que personne ne viendra dire au Quebec que les lois passees sont anticonstitutionnelles; il y aurait beaucoup moins de pression venant des Canadiens Anglais pour proteger la langue anglaise au Quebec, facilitant la diffusion du francais au Quebec. Il resterait d'autres moyens a utiliser pour preserver un francais fort. > >I make no apologies for posting this in English. Ce n'est pas necessaire, l'ami, je suis bilingue. Philippe Derome
sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) (09/26/89)
In article <89Sep25.142059edt.2368@neat.cs.toronto.edu> derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes: >In article <1989Sep24.234330.5492@ccu.umanitoba.ca> salomon@ccu.UManitoba.CA (Dan Salomon) writes: >>In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP> leonard@iros1.UUCP (Nicolas Leonard) writes: >>>In article <1989Sep6.222038.2707@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> gbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Gideon Sheps) writes: [lots of discussion] >>I make no apologies for posting this in English. >Ce n'est pas necessaire, l'ami, je suis bilingue. > >Philippe Derome For those of us not native the the Fatherland, what the hell is he talking about? One side of a debate is not very informative. Crispin
kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) (09/26/89)
In article <7818@microsoft.UUCP> robertfe@microsoft.UUCP (Robert Ferguson 2/1073) writes: In article <1178@mannix.iros1.UUCP> leonard@iros1.UUCP (Nicolas Leonard) writes: [stuff about Nuremberg Laws not applying to Quebec situation] Don't you see at least a little bit of a parallel between the Nuremberg Laws and the current situation in Quebec? We have a situation where an identifiable group of people, formerly integrated into society, have some of their civil rights removed because they are members of that group. It is wrong to treat *anyone* as a second class citizen, no matter how "noble" the reason or cause. I'm sure the Nazis thought they were operating from the highest principles in doing what they did. --------- Robert Ferguson ...uunet!microsoft!robertfe I must say I agree with Fergie...(hi). The sad thing is that even Muldoon is saying that Quebec anglophones WILL HAVE TO SUFFER until Quebec francophones feel culturally secure. That is the biggest indictment of the Meech Lake Accord, and of Muldoon's and Bourassa's two-faced hypocritical approach to basic human rights. I too was born in Montreal; French is my maternal language. But I will never ever have anything more to do with French Quebec as long as I can help it. May their culture, artifically-preserved at the cost of basica civil rights, lead them into economic and political oblivion. -- T. Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.{edu|cdn} kim@watsup.uwaterloo.ca {uunet|utzoo|utai|decvax}watmath!watsup!kim Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
razzell@dosequis.cs.ubc.ca (Dan Razzell) (09/26/89)
In article <89Sep25.142059edt.2368@neat.cs.toronto.edu> derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes: > >Certaines personnes ayant des magasins affichant en anglais ont ete >effectivement victimes de tels incidents. Ils avaient defie la loi, >et le gouvernement n'osait pas l'enforcer. Ce sont la des incidents >regrettables. > >Le gouvernement du Quebec a laisse impunis de nombreux violateurs >de ses lois (illegalites dans l'ecole et l'affichage). >Les Nazis auraient ete sans doute plus vigilants, non? > > ... > >L'attitude des Quebecois envers les Anglais est tres tolerante. By what you are saying above, it seems rather a situation of incompetence overshadowing intolerance. :-) >Il n'y a qu'a voir l'ensemble des services sociaux des services de >sante et d'education disponibles pour la clientele anglophone, une >situation fort enviable. To us liberal types who would like to see more bilingual access to public services all across Canada, the fact that a degree of access exists in Quebec today can appear to be quite progressive. But is this situation a genuine product of current policy, or merely a concession not to dismantle established services for such time as they remain politically convenient? >Imposer des limites d'expression a des minorites linguistiques par >lois gouvernementales n'est pas necessairement du racisme quand a moi. That's a remarkable position to take. It's true that the Soviets favored it for awhile, but lately they seem to be finding it unpopular for some reason. (I'd just quietly drop it before anyone else notices.) I can understand the preservation of language and culture through encouragement. I can understand that Canadians anywhere in the country might expect to walk into a shop and be able to make sense of their surroundings in at least one of the official languages, though if they are also welcome in other languages, that can only be broadening. I can understand that Quebec is in a situation where it needs to preserve its primary language more vigorously than other provinces. But to support a policy of repression seems, well, kind of repressive, if you know what I mean, and hardly justified by the circumstances. -*- By the way, no doubt I'm ignorant about these things, but shouldn't that be "quant a moi"? _______________________________________________________ .^.^. Dan Razzell <razzell@vision.cs.ubc.ca> . o o . Laboratory for Computational Vision . >v< . University of British Columbia ______mm.mm___________________________________________ "enjoy" is a transitive verb
kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) (09/26/89)
In article <89Sep25.142059edt.2368@neat.cs.toronto.edu> derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes:
Le gouvernement du Quebec a laisse impunis de nombreux violateurs
de ses lois (illegalites dans l'ecole et l'affichage). Les Nazis
auraient ete sans doute plus vigilants, non?
La n'est pas la question. The fact that those laws exist is enough to
show that Quebec is treating non-francophones as lesser human beings,
with rights that don't quite count as much as francophones'.
Plusieurs nationalistes contrairement a ces commercants ont ete mis
en prison en 1970 sans proces (lors de la crise du FLQ). Le
meritaient-ils? Dans une societe avec certaines querelles
politiques, il y aura des incidents deplorables. Est-ce que je
cherche a faire un parallele entre Trudeau et d'autre personalites
desagreables? C'est de lui directement que des Gerald Godin ont
ete victimes pas de quelques voyous ou criminels.
Let's not forget that those terrorists and murderers, after a
"self-exile" (oh my heart bleeds), returned to a hero's welcome in
Quebec, and were unfortunately and interestingly denied the just
rewards (prison) for their heinous crimes. Pardoned, my a**! Show me
where the justice is in that!
L'attitude des Quebecois envers les Anglais est tres tolerante. Il
n'y a qu'a voir l'ensemble des services sociaux des services de
sante et d'education disponibles pour la clientele anglophone, une
situation fort enviable.
So what you're saying is it's OK to give with the one hand, and to
take away rights with the other? This makes things equitable? Tit
for tat? Francophones elsewhere in Canada may lack services in
French, but they certainly do not account for as large a proportion of
their regional population as Quebec anglophones.
Le racisme, pour moi consiste a avoir des idees preconcues non
valides envers un groupe qu'on associe a une race (dans le sens
plus etendu que vous utilisez, on peut penser a un groupe
linguistique ou religieux).
Philippe Derome
I don't think this is a complete definition. Racism also consists of
actions taken against a discernable group of people without their
consent. Again, it all boils down to the majority imposing its wishes
on minorities with impunity -- a basic flaw of the democratic system.
Or then again, it just might be an abuse of power, done with the
help of Mulroney and his nifty Meech Lake Accord. Two distinct
societies, ya right.
--
T. Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.{edu|cdn}
kim@watsup.uwaterloo.ca
{uunet|utzoo|utai|decvax}watmath!watsup!kim
Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canadasalomon@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dan Salomon) (09/26/89)
derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes: >Certaines personnes ayant des magasins affichant en anglais ont ete >effectivement victimes de tels incidents. Ils avaient defie la loi, >et le gouvernement n'osait pas l'enforcer. Ce sont la des incidents >regrettables. The laws were being enforced, at least partly. The worst "criminals" were before the courts pleading their case. Perhaps you want the punishment before the trial? The result of the case was that the laws were found unconstitutional, so the provincial government bypassed the constitution. >Le gouvernement du Quebec a laisse impunis de nombreux violateurs >de ses lois (illegalites dans l'ecole et l'affichage). >Les Nazis auraient ete sans doute plus vigilants, non? The only good thing that came out of the NAZI holocaust was that we learned how far racism could go if left unchecked. As a result of NAZI excesses many racist and antisemitic laws in Canada and the US were abolished. But laws can still be racist even if they are not full blown NAZIism. When someone makes reference to the NAZIs it is a reminder of where racism leads. >Plusieurs nationalistes contrairement a ces commercants ont ete >mis en prison en 1970 sans proces (lors de la crise du FLQ). >Le meritaient-ils? You forget that during the FLQ crisis, mailbox bombs were going off in the streets (with some casualties), political hostages were kidnapped, and executions were threatened and one was carried out. The roundup of suspects seemed more reasonable at the time. >Ce qu'ils peuvent vouloir, c'est garder eleve le pourcentage de la population >francophone. When Quebec joined Canada it was 50% Anglophone and 50% Francophone. For years the proportion of Francophones increased, and in the 1970's it hit about 75% depending how you count. Then it stalled, and started slowly decreasing. The ardent nationalists will tolerate no fluc- tuations in the percentage of Francophones. It must only increase. When it hits 100% then they will be happy.
fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) (09/27/89)
In article <KIM.89Sep25171225@watsup.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: >I too was born in Montreal; French is my maternal language. But I >will never ever have anything more to do with French Quebec as long as >I can help it. May their culture, artifically-preserved at the >cost of basica civil rights, lead them into economic and political >oblivion. Wow! That's pretty heavy stuff, Kim! I guess it doesn't matter too much, because with an attitude like that I'm sure the French-speaking population of Quebec would probably feel better if you can help having anything to do with them for a long long time anyway! And, by the way, I hope that you don't feel too bad if I try to do my best not to go to oblivion! (especially economic oblivion, that wouldn't be too nice to young Olivier) (As far as culture is concerned, I should invite some of you to a traditional French-canadian party with songs/dance at my father's one of these days... Quite a fun culture I'd say ;-) (And as far as living in Montreal is concerned, come on down and check out Kirkland: a really nice young community with a good mix of French, English, and others. I've been here 3 years, and so far I enjoy it a lot.) -- Denis Fortin, | fortin@zap.uucp CAE Electronics Ltd | uunet!philmtl!zap!fortin The opinions expressed above are my own. | fortin%zap@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
lrbartram@watcgl.waterloo.edu (lyn bartram) (09/28/89)
In article <89Sep25.142059edt.2368@neat.cs.toronto.edu> derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes: > >La difference avec un Quebec souverain reside >dans le fait que personne ne viendra dire au Quebec que les lois passees >sont anticonstitutionnelles; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Et pourquoi pas? Rappelez-vous que le Cour Superieure de Quebec a juge les lois ci-haut mentionees "anticontitutionelles" vis-a-vis notre propre constutition Quebecois. La jugement du cour dit, tout simplement, que de defendre l'usage d'un langue, quel que soit, s'agit de refuser aux gens une droit humaine. Croyez-vous que le Quebec souverain doit limiter les droits humaines deja assurees par sa constitution? Quel debut decourageant ...moi, je suis d'accord avec Dan (Salomon) - isoler n'est pas proteger. (Veuillez me pardonnez, chers lecteurs; apres trois ans a Ontario, je perds mon francais. )
kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) (09/28/89)
In article <1147@zap.UUCP> fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) writes: In article <KIM.89Sep25171225@watsup.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: [nasty posting about how I detest fascist Quebec nationalists] Wow! That's pretty heavy stuff, Kim! I guess it doesn't matter too much, because with an attitude like that I'm sure the French-speaking population of Quebec would probably feel better if you can help having anything to do with them for a long long time anyway! And, by the way, I hope that you don't feel too bad if I try to do my best not to go to oblivion! (especially economic oblivion, that wouldn't be too nice to young Olivier) Denis Fortin, | fortin@zap.uucp *sigh* I wrote my nasty posting when I was in a nasty mood. I'd been reading about the (then upcoming) elections in Quebec and I'd had a couple of heated arguments with people about them. I never meant to say that I don't like anyone who happens to be French and from Quebec! After all, *I* *am* a Quebec francophone, and I have many friends who are too! I have to say that none of the people I've had close contact with, at work at CAE or at Logo Computer Systems, or just "around", have had the strong nationalistic "kick the anglos and the immigrants out" attitude. But there is this feeling I get that that attitude is pervasive, yet invisible to me, in Quebec. I hate the feeling that I'm not welcome in my own home province simply because I would like to see English signs on stores (or Chinese signs in Chinatown). I understand the need to preserve own's culture, but why does it have to be at the cost of someone else's culture, someone who's lived in Quebec all his or her life, just as the next French Quebecer. The English have been in Quebec almost as long as the French have; have the English no right to live their own culture there as well?? Other reasons I had for blowing up in my previous posting: I haven't stopped hearing about corrupt and hypocritical politicians from Quebec, not only in regards to their handling of and attitudes on the language debate, but also simply in terms of their greed (see Mayor Jean Dore of Montreal and his nifty little Italian piano, and his decision to turn the Velodrome into an oversized botanical garden at costs of several million $$$, taxpayers' money all of it). This on top of paying higher taxes to finance a overly-socialistic and over-unionized province (although unfortunately Quebec MNAs can offer themselves 10%+ salary increases while they can't pay overworked nurses). Well, that's my beef about Quebec, and that's why it all had a cumulative effect on me when I posted my nasty message. I'm terribly sorry to have offended anyone, especially YOU Denis! My deepest apologies, and I will curb my thoughts, as well as my tongue. -- T. Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.{edu|cdn} kim@watsup.uwaterloo.ca {uunet|utzoo|utai|decvax}watmath!watsup!kim Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) (09/29/89)
In article <1989Sep26.165138.1833@ccu.umanitoba.ca> salomon@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dan Salomon) writes: >derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes: > >>Le gouvernement du Quebec a laisse impunis de nombreux violateurs >>de ses lois (illegalites dans l'ecole et l'affichage). >>Les Nazis auraient ete sans doute plus vigilants, non? > >The only good thing that came out of the NAZI holocaust was that we >learned how far racism could go if left unchecked. As a result of NAZI >excesses many racist and antisemitic laws in Canada and the US were >abolished. But laws can still be racist even if they are not full >blown NAZIism. When someone makes reference to the NAZIs it is a >reminder of where racism leads. J'argumentais que les lois linguistiques du Quebec ou que les quebecois supportant ces lois n'etaient pas racistes. Les lois d'affichage s'appliquent egalement aux francophones qui auraient voulu plaire a une clientele anglophone. Ils sont eux aussi penalises. Les articles sur l'affichage mettent les langues autres que le francais dans une autre categorie. Dans le sens que cette separation le`se les desirs (et droits) des anglophones, ils sont victimes de discrimination. Est-ce bien clair? j'admets ceci. Pour moi toutefois, discrimination n'implique pas racisme. Un dictionaire anglais que j'ai sous la main, Webster, cite que le racisme est une croyance que la race determine des traits de caractere et de personnalite chez l'etre humain qui varient d'une race a l'autre et une croyance qu'une race est superieure a une autre. J'avoue que c'est restreint, mais ca s'applique au nazisme et au Ku KLux Klan. Les Quebecois francophones ne devraient pas s'identifier a une race (toutefois il y a eu peu de mariages avec d'autres groupes que descendants de France). S'ils le faisaient par erreur, -le racisme est une croyance-, ils ne croient pas pour la plupart a des differences entre les races, ni ne croient qu'ils font partie d'une qui soit superieure a celle des anglais ni meme l'inverse. Vous aurez sans doute envie de dire tout au moins que les Quebecois font preuve de discrimination injustifiee et abusive. Mais je crois que c'est un autre debat. > >>Plusieurs nationalistes contrairement a ces commercants ont ete >>mis en prison en 1970 sans proces (lors de la crise du FLQ). >>Le meritaient-ils? > >You forget that during the FLQ crisis, mailbox bombs were going off in >the streets (with some casualties), political hostages were kidnapped, >and executions were threatened and one was carried out. The roundup of >suspects seemed more reasonable at the time. Je ne l'ai pas oublie; j'ai simplement omis de le mentionner. Il y a eu 2 victimes decedees, un diplomate britannique et un ministre (Cross et Laporte). L'argument que vous mentionnez est celui presente officiellement par les representants du gouvernement federal au pouvoir. Leurs raisons d'inquietude reposaient sur des informations confidentielles de leurs services de securite. Ces informations n'ont pas ete presentees hors des proches de Trudeau. Il en suit que de nombreuses sources tant au Canada anglais qu'au Canada francais ont interpretes les evenements comme un abus de pouvoir injustifie des liberaux de Trudeau. Ces sources pretendent que Trudeau s'est servi de la crise a des fins politiques, notamment s'attaquer au mouvement separatiste democratique. Il reste que les opinions sur ce sujet sont assez etendues et dependent en partie de partisanerie politique. > >>Ce qu'ils peuvent vouloir, c'est garder eleve le pourcentage de la population >>francophone. > >When Quebec joined Canada it was 50% Anglophone and 50% Francophone. >For years the proportion of Francophones increased, and in the 1970's >it hit about 75% depending how you count. Then it stalled, and started >slowly decreasing. The ardent nationalists will tolerate no fluc- >tuations in the percentage of Francophones. It must only increase. >When it hits 100% then they will be happy. Encore une fois, vous abusez. Donnez-moi des references a vos chiffres, s'il vous plait. Please give me proof of your 50-50% English-French numbers on Quebec. Je crois qu'il est raisonable de penser que des chiffres pres des votres s'applique a une certaine periode du 19e siecle dans les villes de Montreal et de Quebec, mais je doute fort que cela s'applique a la population entiere. Nommez-moi un Quebecois qui desire qu'il n'y ait que des francophones au Quebec. Vous plaisantiez sans doute. Cela dit, je crois qu'un bon nombre de Quebecois considere les proportions actuelles acceptables; ils ne veulent pas voir la population francaise baisser comme ils en ont ete temoins dans les autres provinces et en Nouvelle-Angleterre. Le fait que les immigrants choisissent bien souvent l'anglais inquiete certains Quebecois francophones nationalistes. Je crois qu'une volonte politique d'un peuple de maintenir sa superiorite demographique pour assurer son avenir est un objectif louable quand il se fait a l'interieur des limites du respectable. Philippe Derome
salomon@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dan Salomon) (10/03/89)
derome@cs.toronto.edu (Philippe Derome) writes: >J'argumentais que les lois linguistiques du Quebec ou que les quebecois >supportant ces lois n'etaient pas racistes. Les lois d'affichage >s'appliquent egalement aux francophones qui auraient voulu plaire >a une clientele anglophone. Ils sont eux aussi penalises. Now I understand. Both the English and the French customers are equally prevented from reading signs in English. There is no discrimination. Well that sounds fair, doesn't it? Is this guy for real? >>When Quebec joined Canada it was 50% Anglophone and 50% Francophone. >>For years the proportion of Francophones increased, and in the 1970's >>it hit about 75% depending how you count. > >Donnez-moi des references a vos chiffres, >s'il vous plait. Please give me proof of your 50-50% English-French >numbers on Quebec. The dramatic increase in the French population of Quebec is well known as by the name "le revache du berceau," (the revenge of the cradle). Unfortunately I don't have a written reference. I heard these figures on the radio. >Je crois qu'il est raisonable de penser que des chiffres pres des votres >s'applique a une certaine periode du 19e siecle dans les villes de Montreal >et de Quebec, mais je doute fort que cela s'applique a la population >entiere. Take a look at a map of Quebec. In particular look at the Eastern Townships (Les Canton de l'Est). You will find plenty of towns there with English names: Sherbrooke, Bedford, Sutton, Ormstown, Hemmingford, Bolton, Roxton, Hereford, Cookshire, Wolfestown, Scotstown, Richmond, Kingsbury, etc., etc. You even find some towns with bilingual names like Waterville, Granby, and Bromptonville. The Eastern Townships once had a large proportion of English residents. But the French had babies, and the English had hot-water bottles. Even a French name doesn't guarantee a majority French population as is proved even today by the names Lachine, Baie d'Urfe, and Ile Perrot. You profess that you do not want the English to leave Quebec, but you do want them always to feel like strangers in the French homeland. The English helped build Quebec and Montreal, just as much as the French did, and now they are not supposed to enjoy the fruits of their labour.
fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) (10/03/89)
In article <KIM.89Sep28125759@watsup.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: > > In article <1147@zap.UUCP> fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) writes: > > > > > In article <KIM.89Sep25171225@watsup.waterloo.edu> kim@watsup.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: > > > [nasty posting about how I detest fascist Quebec nationalists] > > > > [rather sharp rebuttal] > > [...] I'm terribly sorry to have offended anyone [...] Hey! Apology accepted. I was just trying to bring everything back into perspective and get everybody to realize that when they talk about the French or "les anglais", they're talking about real people. (Phew! I feel much better now that this threat of oblivion is now hanging over my head anymore ;-) Denis. PS. > Other reasons I had for blowing up in my previous posting: I haven't > stopped hearing about corrupt and hypocritical politicians from > Quebec, not only in regards to their handling of and attitudes on the > language debate, but also simply in terms of their greed (see Mayor > Jean Dore of Montreal and his nifty little Italian piano, and his > decision to turn the Velodrome into an oversized botanical garden at > costs of several million $$$, taxpayers' money all of it). Again, I guess my comment about there being bozos in Quebec too also applies to politicians ;-) (And anybody who believes that all English-speaking politicians are not corrupt obviously has an overly naive view of the U.S. political system ;-) > This on top of paying higher taxes to finance a overly-socialistic and > over-unionized province The latest statistics I've seen put the overall tax load for Ontario at about the same level as that for Quebec. Apparently, the Ontario liberals have been raising taxes while their Quebec counterparts have been fairly succesful at curbing the increases... (Would anybody have any numbers to confirm/deny this? I heard this on a show on the economy on Montreal radio. Though I don't think they meant simply the income tax.) Anyway, this is an entirely different topic. -- Denis Fortin, | fortin@zap.uucp CAE Electronics Ltd | uunet!philmtl!zap!fortin The opinions expressed above are my own. | fortin%zap@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu
kam@myrias.com (Kent McPhee) (10/04/89)
In article <1170@zap.UUCP> fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) writes: >> decision to turn the Velodrome into an oversized botanical garden at >> costs of several million $$$, taxpayers' money all of it). Are they really going to do this? The Olympic Velodrome is one of the best cycling buildings anywhere (if only they'd refinish the track a little more often). Maybe they'll turn the Forum into a big waterpark, too :-) -- Kent McPhee kam@myrias.com Myrias Research, Edmonton {uunet,alberta}!myrias!kam
lrbartram@watcgl.waterloo.edu (lyn bartram) (10/04/89)
In article <1170@zap.UUCP> fortin@zap.UUCP (Denis Fortin) writes: > >The latest statistics I've seen put the overall tax load for Ontario >at about the same level as that for Quebec. Apparently, the Ontario >liberals have been raising taxes while their Quebec counterparts have >been fairly succesful at curbing the increases... (Would anybody have >any numbers to confirm/deny this? I heard this on a show on the economy >on Montreal radio. Though I don't think they meant simply the income tax.) All i can cite is my own experience. I moved to Ontario three years ago. Then i was a student; now i'm working. AS a student i found it *much* easier to live well in Montreal than in southern Ontario. Rents are significantly less, there's lots of free nifty things to do, car insurance is much cheaper. But i expected when my income rose drastically that i'd be happier to be here (fiscally speaking). Wrong! By the time i factor in OHIP for my husband and myself, car insurance, income tax, and sales tax, i'd come out better in Quebec than here. This is a radical change from five years ago. Note that i haven't included car insurance nor rent/cost of housing, since i realize there are other forces at work beyond provincial control. Perhaps my political outlook will change (now that i'm making money) and i would feel overburdened by taxes in Quebec as opposed to Alberta. I assert, however, that it is easier to live a nice lifestyle for proportionally less money in Montreal than in most other cities in the country (and i've lived all over). Moreover, although one poster called Quebec "over-socialistic", it is the only province which guarantees freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation, the rights of children, the rights of women (including the most liberal abortion policy in the country) and actively promotes consumer protection. THHIS POSTING IS NOT ABOUT WHAT IT DOES TO MY RIGHTS AS AN ANGLOPHONE, OK??? I just wanted to show that while the scales tip wildly in my home province, they do not always go in the *wrong* way.