eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (08/26/85)
> What is the basis for the "North American" (?) > rating system of climbs, which goes 5.1,5.2....5.14 (I believe). > Also, who started it? > > Finally, what other systems are there? > > Can anybody fill me in? > -- > Jon 'Big J' Alexander, U. of Toronto Comp. Serv. Hum, Just got back from Lover's Leap. There are three basic systems in use (in NA) with several local systems. The basic systems are the Decimal System which you refer, the NCCS (National Climbing Classification System) developed by the American Alpine Club, and the UIAA [international]. Local systems include a system for rating ice climbs [tenuous], the open ended Australian system which I now believe goes from 1 to 31 (generally thought to be the best rating system: good granularity and open ended), and two European systems: English using Roman numerals and +s and -s for difficulty. The alpine system (French) uses descriptors like D, TD, ED with -s and +s. These rating systems only rate the hardest individual move over a climb or a pitch on a lead (top roping does not quite count). [Obviously, hardest move is a problem, consider sustained problems]. It's mostly subjective, but it has objective elements in it. You notice the size of holds on 5.7s tend to be about the same size where every you go (roughly). Exposure should not be taken into account, only 'technical' difficulty (subjective). The UIAA also has a system of grading overall difficulties of climbs. It goes from I to VII. A IV is a major one day climb with significant technical difficulties. A VI is a multiday technical climb such as an El Cap Route. Problem: how to grade a climb after a 'freak' ascent: Henry Barber's 2 1/2 hour ascent of Sentinel rock [normally a two day climb for most] or the 10 hours ascent of the Nose on El Cap [normally a 3-5 day climb]. The basis for the Decimal system, also known in some areas as the Sierra Club system [not appropriate] was from Alpine Guides in Europe who just rated their 'walks' from 1-5. I use walk because this is what climbs consisted of around 1890 when this system 'sprung' into use. Aroung 1950, near Los Angeles, CA, it became clear that class 5 in particular was inappropriately partitioned. Class 6 was added prior to this time to describe obvious artificial aids. People suggested dividing 5th class climbing into ten subclasses. The principal people behind this were Royal Robbins [a teenager at the time] and probably the first to climb a 5.9 and Chuck Wilts [at Caltech]. Ten? We have ten fingers and toes, our numbers systems are based on 10. So began the decimal system 1-5.0-5.9. 6 was temporarily divided from 6.0 and 6.9 but was replaced with the A1-A6 classification from the UIAA [early copies of the Yosemite Climbers guide show it fractions of 6]. The problems arose around 1959-1964 when people were clearly doing climbs harder than 5.9 thru skill, trickery, and technology. Chuck Pratt is generally credited with doing the first 5.10. [I think Crack of Doom at Elephant Rock in Yosemite.] You will notice what appears to be a California slant. This is because during the period from the late 1950s thru the 1960s, the good weather of Yosemite Valley, the technology developed by Yvon Chouinard [mass produced hard steel pitons], and so forth pushed climbing beyond what it was conceived. True, the English had developed jamming [counterforce climbing techniques] in the early 1950s by Joe Brown, and ice climbing thru John Cummingham [sp], but this was california's time to shine. Between 1964-1966 there were climbs clearly beyond 5.10, one in Yosemite and one in Colorado which vied for the first 5.11. People began thinking about the possibility of 5.12 shortly. This issue was briefly side tracked when it was argued there were a great variation in 5.10s. Around this time it was 'proposed' in a Mountain article to break 5.10 into 5.10a-5.10d and 5.11 into 5.11a and 5.11b [Now to 5.11d]. 5.12 was added in the late 1970s [I've only seen my first 5.12 a month ago: a woman (!) climbing a 35 foot overhang roof (horizontal) split by a handjam, she peeled off three times while I was watching, each time putting in another piece, each time getting pulled back into the belay stance (I've off alpine climbing for the most part).] 5.13s were added recently. I've yet to hear of a 5.14 yet. Consistency was a problem during the 1960s. In Colorado, many ratings were 2 points off their CA ratings CO 5.9 was a CA 5.7 [worse case] and this has pretty much been corrected. Asides: I used to climb with an English fellow who is a UCSB physicist who has several articles on climbing. It's interesting to hear his European rating of pitches on say the East Face of Mount Whitney (our variant 5.6) (TD+) [he wanted to do popular routes]. Supercomputers are rated from Class 1-6 [why not 5 or 10?]. I suspect that the physicists who did this were climbers. I know Edward Teller was a climber as a young man before losing his foot. I asked two of the people responsible for rating supercomputers if we had entered class 7 yet [one Y and one N]. Where are these systems going? Climbs are being done which are physically impossible for people of certain size or proportion: squeeze chimneys (ies) and superwide chims, or long reaches. Some climbs are not even climbs, but long jumps followed by fast friction moves [otherwise certain death]. Only time can tell how far these rating system are going to go. You pretty much have climb continously to climb a 5.12 standard or higher and they are the only ones who can rate these climbs. [My brother in law climbs 5.11 consistently. I could climb a few 5.10abs at my peak.] These systems break down with ice climbs, alpine climbs, and superalpine climbs as done in Pakistan right now. Sources: many but only indirect. There is a date but famous Sierra Club publication from the 1940 entitled Belaying the Leader, the Climbers Guide to Tahquitz Rock (Wilts), Climbing in NA by Chris Jones, Climb by Dudley Chelton and Bob Godfrey, one book which escapes me now. Numerous other books by Blackshaw, March, Rabbitface (sic), Robbins. The Freedom of the Hills text and the Sierra Club's Learning to Climb texts are okay. But remember, you have to go out climbing. Ignore books by Casewit, Ullman (to a degree) waste of time. It is probably possible to reach Wilts via the net, but I suspect he doesn't really respond to Email. People sources: C. Wilts, Y. Chouinard, J. Dozier, J. Cardy, D. Chelton, J. Harlan, III, many others. This is obviously short, it doesn't cover fine points. If you need more info, send me mail. If I can't answer it, I will forward hardcopy to people who can. --eugene Formerly with the GPIW. Now Yosemite has been. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb
eli@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) (08/28/85)
> 5.12 was added in the late 1970s [I've only seen my first 5.12 > a month ago: a woman (!) climbing a 35 foot overhang roof (horizontal) > split by a handjam, she peeled off three times while I was watching, > each time putting in another piece, each time getting pulled back into > the belay stance (I've off alpine climbing for the most part).] > 5.13s were added recently. I've yet to hear of a 5.14 yet. I've seen only seen a couple 5.12 routes with my own eyes. Most of them seem to be contrived out of 5.10 or 5.11 routes with little twists to make them difficult (no, no, you're only to use the crack....) The remainder seem to be face climbs with very few/shallow holds. I've never seen a 5.13 and couldn't imagine a 5.13+ face climb (!). > consistently. I could climb a few 5.10abs at my peak.] These systems > break down with ice climbs, alpine climbs, and superalpine climbs as > done in Pakistan right now. What is a superalpine route? What is an example of a VII route? > --eugene > Formerly with the GPIW. Now Yosemite has been. > --eugene miya > NASA Ames Research Center > {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene > emiya@ames-vmsb -eli -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang
putnam@gatech.CSNET (William O. Putnam) (08/30/85)
[ "The big walls, man, the big walls!" - Layton Kor ]
Eugene - you mention climbing in Yosemite...
I'm about to go out there on a climbing trip (Sept 6) and I was wondering
if anyone reading this stuff has been on any of the big wall (or even
small wall :-) ) climbs in Yosemite.
I'm planning to try the North Buttress of Middle Cathedral, the South Face
of Washingtom Column, and some smaller routes. Does anyone have any suggestions
or recommendations on routes, equipment, etc? I would like to do long routes
with mostly free climbing at 5.7 to 5.9 difficulty. I have some aid experience,
but only with nuts & friends - no iron. I feel like I can handle up to an A3
pitch OK, but I'd rather avoid nailing.
Any suggestions will be appreciated...
--
Bill Putnam
School of Information & Computer Science, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
CSNet: Putnam @ GATech ARPA: Putnam.GATech @ CSNet-Relay
uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,unmvax,ulysses,ut-sally}!gatech!putnameugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (09/02/85)
[Hope this gets thru the newsfeed.] > > I've seen only seen a couple 5.12 routes with my own eyes. Most of them > seem to be contrived out of 5.10 or 5.11 routes with little twists to make > them difficult (no, no, you're only to use the crack....) The remainder > seem to be face climbs with very few/shallow holds. I've never seen a > 5.13 and couldn't imagine a 5.13+ face climb (!). > > > What is a superalpine route? What is an example of a VII route? > > > -eli > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Eli Liang --- > University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 > ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep > CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang Good questions, this is fun. [Camp fire discussion on the net.] I felt like you do about contriving things. That is why I only recently saw a 12. I can assume you this route was beyond 5.11. World examples of 5.12s include Yosemite roofs like Separate Reality (the Jardine's Friends picture shows this). I have not seen a 13. These routes are typically steep overhanging cracks with sustained 5.11 to reach a harder crux. Most are aid routes (A3 originally in this case) done free. There is still a lot of climbing to be done in Tuoloumne Meadows. Certainly this is contriving in some ways. By the way, I don't know of any 5.12 friction or face routes only cracks and roofs. The worst tend to be slight overhangs rather than horizontal. Any climber who has done hard climbs will tell you this. This is because horizontal roofs are clearly bombbay. True vertical things make balance [90% of climbing difficult], but you can typically plaster your yourself on a hold [this `sounds' bad to intermediate climbers but on things that are steep require this to rest]. Off vertical things are hard because you have a hard time trying to get good rest angles off of holds. You can just feel the palms sweating up, slipping off that crystal you are trying to force that Feldspar crystal deeper into you skin for a jam. Boots slipping off..... ;-) Superalpine and Grade VII: background for armchairs: In 1974, a book was published by R. Messner titled the Seventh Grade. Messner [overblown by the press] is probably the greatest living Alpinist in the world. He's not a 5.12 climber, you don't understand climbing if you form that question in your head. He took climbing's eyes away from America in 1968-198? because of extremely fast calculated ascents. Not that his times just faster, but the `style' [that difficult to define thing] was `elegant:' clean, frill-free, sort of like Unix...;-) He said that with another alpinist of good caliber, he would do 8,000M peaks in fast style. This he has done. from 1975 to present. Messner was not alone. The first acknowledged Grade VII was the ascent of the Uli Biafo tower in Pakistan. Other climbs proposed include several routes on Fitzroy, [East Face direct, Alpine-style] Patagonia, Argentina, The Infinity Spur, Foraker, Alaska [90 steep pitches, but no climbing of 5.8, but highly sustained, but it's of question because of the technical difficulty]. Oh, Latok, 30 day attempt by the Lowes. [Oh! the recent changabang and Cholatse,and lots of other ascents.] Grade VIIs are all `Alpine' style: no seige tactics, no fixed rope. They tend to be done at the 20,000 foot elevation, but note Fitzroy and Foraker are 11,500 and 17,000 respectively. An excellent essay was published by Lito Tejada-Flores in the 1967 Ascent entitled Games Climber's Play: unfortunately, now an over used title, and no good essays [almost] have come out since then. The original paper is very good, and mentions the migration of `games.' One earlier posting mentioned comparing a VII to a McKinley ascent. This is a good point. The expeditionary nature of climbing: cost, O(n log n) costs by the way, are seeing evolution toward the super alpine. The reason, why my original posting and this one are long is because most climbing texts are far from up to date, on these issues, like computing. Climbing has undergone radical technological change. A good home example if the evolution of the Class 6 -> 6.0..6.9 -> A1-A5 -> A1-A3+ -> A1-A4 and now -> A5 again. Anyways. Enough of this talk. I think I contributed to this dicussion just by update. Too much work. By the way, I decided yesterday that I want to go to Colorado in a couple of weeks and do a quick ascent of Longs. And a few other things , weather permitting. I've had my say on this topic, and I will only send private mail for responses now. Thanks for reading. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb
eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (09/02/85)
> > I'm about to go out there on a climbing trip (Sept 6) and I was wondering > if anyone reading this stuff has been on any of the big wall (or even > small wall :-) ) climbs in Yosemite. > > I'm planning to try the North Buttress of Middle Cathedral, the South Face > of Washingtom Column, and some smaller routes. Does anyone have any > suggestions > or recommendations on routes, equipment, etc? I would like to do long routes > with mostly free climbing at 5.7 to 5.9 difficulty. I have some aid > experience, > but only with nuts & friends - no iron. I feel like I can handle up to an A3 > pitch OK, but I'd rather avoid nailing. > -- > Bill Putnam If you have never been climbing before, [readers], Yosemite is not the place to go. The climbs tend to be long, steep and smooth. If you climb, but have never been to Yosemite, you have to get used to these things. You especially have to refine your crack climbing. I've done two Vs, not VIs [but I want to do the Lotus Flower Tower which was a VI]. I did most short hard free. 1) it will be crowded. 2) register for longer climbs. Do some 5.9 IIs and IIIs before going up on longer Vs and VIs. Nutcracker is very popular (1-5.8 move with lots of laybacking, I suspect Robbins like laybacking, I'll ask him). For an easy long climb, everybody does Royal Arches [50 classics, III,5.9] and Column Direct [III,5.7]. Get used to the smoothness and get used to long lead outs [one partner took a 100 footer on me because he couldn't put any pro in on a friction climb, and it was only 100 feet because I hauled in a lot of rope: only abrasions, by the way]. Half Dome, Snake dike [1-5.7,III] is this way, 150 feet of 5.4 face with no proo on one pitch. Easy, but... If you want a `weekend' VI, there is the orignal route on Halfdome, but you have the slow guys and the one-day all freers passing you or in front of you. 3) Aid climbing [after thought] is frowned on unless you are doing a V or VI. The emphasis is to push the free. Don't aid climbs which now go free, push your abilities: Let us raise our level, not lower the climb as Joe Brown said. There a paradox in the Valley. Anyway, you typically don't need much iron except for Rurps and Knifeblades on walls. Copperheads are popular, too. Second, thought, just go and see for yourself. Take a bicycle. Nice way to see Yosemite Valley at 7 am before people get up and not be surrounded by metal. Summary, there's lots of routes. If you want to get away from Yosemite consider Tuolumne Meadows [lots of harder things, and in some cases, less pro], Lover's Leap hear Tahoe, Robbins teachs school here. Tahquitz near Los Angeles [I did one route, 10 pitches there!, lots of 8 pitch, mostly 4-5 pitch], Suicide Rock across from Tahquitz. If you want more Alpine, let me suggest the Area around Mt. Whitney Portal and the Palisade region of the Sierra: 14,000 foot elevation. Piper at the Gates of Dawn is good [III,5.8]. Even the East Face of Whitney is a pretty nice climb [III,5.4-5.7]. Oh, outside L.A. is Joshua Tree. Short, very rough rock, taping hands helps. There is only stuff, but I feel obliged not to mention other places to visitors as locals get pisted. I would suggest places in Colorado and Utah, but I am only a semi-local due to relatives. Lastly, there are the Tetons and Winds in Wyoming, D.T., too. Avoid a book named the Climber's Guide to N.A. It's not very good. I went to school with the author and did several of these climbs with Harlan, but I think the tact of the book is wrong. Get a local Climbers Guide. If anybody is interested, I'm always trying to find decent climbing partners: one who likes to have fun, but swing their butt into free air. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb Good partners are hard to find. Have fun. :-)
eli@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) (09/03/85)
> [ "The big walls, man, the big walls!" - Layton Kor ] > > Eugene - you mention climbing in Yosemite... > > I'm about to go out there on a climbing trip (Sept 6) and I was wondering > if anyone reading this stuff has been on any of the big wall (or even > small wall :-) ) climbs in Yosemite. > > I'm planning to try the North Buttress of Middle Cathedral, the South Face > of Washingtom Column, and some smaller routes. Does anyone have any suggestions > or recommendations on routes, equipment, etc? I would like to do long routes > with mostly free climbing at 5.7 to 5.9 difficulty. I have some aid experience, > but only with nuts & friends - no iron. I feel like I can handle up to an A3 > pitch OK, but I'd rather avoid nailing. > > Any suggestions will be appreciated... > > > > -- > Bill Putnam > School of Information & Computer Science, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 > CSNet: Putnam @ GATech ARPA: Putnam.GATech @ CSNet-Relay > uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,rlgvax,sb1,unmvax,ulysses,ut-sally}!gatech!putnam In Fifty Classic Climbs of North America, there are a bunch of routes mentioned for Yosemite. These, being "classic" routes have been done and redone so many times that you don't have to nail anything, all the bolts that one might need are already up. The problem is that in Yosemite, there's really nothing new under the sun. -eli -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang
eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (09/06/85)
[I like the Surf Punks.] > > The problem is that in Yosemite, there's really nothing new under the sun. > > -eli > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Eli Liang --- > University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 That's right! No sense in going to Yosemite Valley. Stay at the Gunks, Cannon Mt., Senaca. Stay home. Too many climbers here right now. That's three of you guys quoting from Roper and Steck. I think, I'll tell Al about this electronic discussion the next time I see him. I think he'll really get a kick! He'll say something like: "God, you'll have to carry a portable computer when you go climb." [This has been done actually: I've skied with an LSI-11 on my back, Mike Hoover has carried a lap top word processor [can't remember the name], Nick Estcourt programmed expedition simulations in England before getting killed on K2, and Chris Bonnington continues to use Nick's programs]. Again: stay away from Yosemite: it's hot, overcrowded, all the holds are covered with chalk, all the cracks are bottomed out pin scars, all the young kids climb 5.14, there are tourists all over the place, the Rangers get down on you for not registering, take up surfing. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene emiya@ames-vmsb
eli@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) (09/09/85)
> [I like the Surf Punks.] > > > > The problem is that in Yosemite, there's really nothing new under the sun. > > > > -eli > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Eli Liang --- > > University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 > > That's right! No sense in going to Yosemite Valley. Stay at the Gunks, > Cannon Mt., Senaca. Stay home. Too many climbers here right now. > > That's three of you guys quoting from Roper and Steck. I think, I'll > tell Al about this electronic discussion the next time I see him. I think > he'll really get a kick! He'll say something like: "God, you'll have to > carry a portable computer when you go climb." [This has been done > actually: I've skied with an LSI-11 on my back, Mike Hoover has carried > a lap top word processor [can't remember the name], Nick Estcourt programmed > expedition simulations in England before getting killed on K2, and > Chris Bonnington continues to use Nick's programs]. > > Again: stay away from Yosemite: it's hot, overcrowded, all the holds > are covered with chalk, all the cracks are bottomed out pin scars, > all the young kids climb 5.14, there are tourists all over the place, > the Rangers get down on you for not registering, take up surfing. > > --eugene miya > NASA Ames Research Center > {hplabs,ihnp4,dual,hao,decwrl,allegra}!ames!aurora!eugene > emiya@ames-vmsb No, no, no! I didn't mean it that way at all! I mean, if your looking for 'new' routes that aren't contrived 5.13+'s, you're going to have to look very hard for them in Yosemite. I'm certainly not a 5.13 climber (nowhere close!) and I think that Yosemite is one of the best climbing spots in the US, so please don't take umbrage... I also didn't realize I was quoting Roper and Steck, although I very well may have been. After all, like I read it too like most aspiring climbers. Perhaps a silly line like that sticks in ones mind... -eli -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang