danw@oliven.UUCP (danw) (11/02/84)
[] GIVEN: 1 Our income tax system stinks. (other than CPA' & IRS agents NO one has a good word to say about it ) GIVEN: 2 The shoe store sells shoes GIVEN: 3 Congress sells loopholes (the current tax mess IS the aggregate of all the past loop-holes congress has sold) GIVEN: 4 No social institution, least of all the US congress ever voluntarily gives up political power. GIVEN: 5 People who babble on about congress passing a 'flat rate income tax' are hoplessly naive. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone can point out the obvious, what is the answer? ------------------------------------------------------------------- A grass-roots movement to pass a constitutional amendment that will make all forms of income tax illegal - and replace it dollar for dollar with a Value Added Tax (VAT). PROVISIONS: 1 It is illegal for any state, federal or local government in the US to tax corporate or individual income in any way. 2 The VAT maximum total percentage tax is set by a referendum constitutional amendment and can ONLY be changed by the same process. This total percentage is the total of all state , federal & local VAT's . This will have the effect of a NATIONAL prop. 13 3 Loophole no.1 staple food items are exempt. (It is legally impossible to 'add value to' food. 4 Loophole no.2 items for export are exempt. US VAT is only applied to items sold in the US. 5 THERE ARE NO OTHER LOOPHOLES. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It is essential that this be done as a constitutional amendment, effectively bypassing the congress. Otherwise the entire exercise will become counter productive. They will KEEP income tax AND add the VAT ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ->QUESTION: Isn't VAT just a sales tax? ANSWER: NO. With a 10% sales tax $2.00 pair of socks cost $2.20 With VAT a $2.00 pair of socks costs $2.00 ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. VAT retains the one redeeming feature of personal income tax withholding , it is invisible to the user. (people are much more enthusiasm about redistribution of wealth if they don't realize it is THEIR wealth that is being reassigned.) Liberterians Anything is better than the current system. Right of center stateists. A taxpayers revolt is brewing , there is the ever present danger that the peasants will turn to the easy answers of socialism if given a chance. Lock in the status quo with a VAT. ->QUESTION: So who pays the tax? ANSWER: Business (non export or non food) If VAT is 10% and a business increases the value of its product by $2.00 then it must send the government 20 cents. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. It will appear to the people that they pay nothing, and the greedy capitalists get stuck. Liberterians Those of you who own businesses know that you send checks to the government all of the time. Nothing changes. Right of center stateists. Businessmen will love it. They get to pass the cost of the VAT directly on to the consumer. Exports are indirectly subsidized, allowing them to compete unfairly in the export markets. ->QUESTION: Who decides that a business has added value and how much? ANSWER: The same people you are now dealing with at the IRS . We just change the name of IRS to something else. VAS?? ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. Democrats have been changing the names of bankrupt social programs for years. Make it appear that IRS is being abolished. Reassure IRS agents , CPA's etc. that they have job security with the new VAT bureau. (accept lots of money from their PACs) Liberterians Gradualism is the buzz word , our time will come later. see below for advantages. Right of center stateists. This is business as usual. ->QUESTION: Who decides what the maximum amount VAT will be? ANSWER: The people do , with a constitutional amendment. If it is decided that a fair flat rate tax rate is 18% then the MAX VAT total tax rate will be 18% (for example a 100% total VAT would double the cost of items as seen by the consumer) ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. Fairness, hit 'm with fairness , ALL business appear to pay the same VAT. Liberterians The government is a gigantic rabid dog that is running loose and growing in size and ferocity. A maximum tax rate cast in granite,(by a constitutional amendment) will fix for all time, the length of the leash that this dog will be shackled to. Right of center stateists. Actually they don't , the TOTAL is fixed by law , what share of the total any given business will pay is subject to negotiation.(Endless opportunity for campaign contributions.) ->QUESTION: You mean I get to keep 100% of my income? ANSWER: YES. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. You can't win them all. But cheer up, people will sooner or later get tired of hiding their money in banks and buy something with it. At that point we can redistribute their wealth. Liberterians With big brother out of the income business ,we can achieve a great measure of personal and financial privacy. There would be no barriers to passing Swiss style Banking security laws. Right of center stateists. Is there an individual or a business man that won't jump for joy when you tell them that you have IRS off their back once and for all. Bankers will give massive campaign contributions for Banking security laws. (and a chance to compete for the billions the Swiss have hidden away) ->QUESTION: Is VAT fair? ANSWER: Yes. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. Everyone pays the same VAT by purchasing goods in the USA. Everyone pays the same rate NO exceptions. It is the ultimate flat rate tax. It is inherently fair. Liberterians This is better than dealing with the IRS. Lets not oppose it. With time people will see the advantage of having the dangerous dog of government on a leash. Then we can begin pointing out that an even shorter leash will be even better. Right of center stateists. The VAT cost is hidden in the price of each item, the effect is the same as inflation. If the average take home pay is increased by the same amount as the cost of living increase, no change in average standard of living will result. No public outcry. ->QUESTION: Can the VAT be evaded? ANSWER: By individuals, No. (it would be necessary to smuggle foreign goods to avoid paying the hidden VAT included in the cost of all goods for sale in the US) ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. This is all pervasive big brotherism it will make socialists everywhere feel good to have thought of a tax that can't be evaded. Liberterians Give what is Ceasar's unto Caesar. Right of center stateists. Conservatives are going nuts trying to stop the drug industry. There are coke dealers driving around in Mercedes 450's who don't pay a dime of tax. It will make the conservatives feel good to realize they have thought of a way to tax the multi billion dollar drug industry. ->QUESTION: Will anyone pay VAT who does not now pay tax? ANSWER: Yes. The entire underground economy will be taxed at the same rate as everyone else. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. Think of all that money just waiting to be redistribute. Liberterians The government will soon be unable to get along without this 'new' money. Legalization is only possible after a wide spread social acceptance of the 'necessity' of this kind of business. Right of center stateists. Think of all that money just waiting to be taxed. ->QUESTION: But will VAT feed the poor? ANSWER: Yes. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. Liberals will claim they were for it all along. By exempting staple foods from VAT , food will be held at an artificially low price. The poor will be able to feed themselves with much less difficulty. Liberterians As Liberterians we can argue: Look at what a good deal food is. If we have our way (eliminate government) all goods will then become as cheap as food is now. Right of center stateists. A good cheap way to feed the poor is good politics.(they remain docile and apolitical) ->QUESTION: Will VAT increase exports (help deal with the massive trade imbalance)? ANSWER: Yes. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. Liberals have long been crying about foreign 'dumping' and crying for protectionist measures. The 'dumping' is not the result of foreign philanthropy , but rather the result of foreign VAT's that exempt exported goods. (a fact that has been kept from most americans). Liberals will label the VAT a protectionist measure that gives 'those foreign capitalists' a dose of their own medicine. Liberterians Increased exports are a good thing. Right of center stateists. American export business is hard hit by the overvalued dollar. Republicans will claim they support the VAT because it is not protectionism but rather an economic 'incentive' to export. ->QUESTION: Will VAT encourage savings and investments and entrepreneurism? ANSWER: Yes. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. None. All of the above mentioned activities are terrible and must be discouraged. We will however support the measure because of its other excellent socialist features. Liberterians 100% of your income is yours reguardless of its source. Very liberterian. Interest, dividends ,capital gains ... all yours, keep it all. Reinvest to your hearts content this is capitalism for everyone. Right of center stateists. People will quit chasing bizarre 'tax free' investments and tax shelters and simply put the money where it earns the best return Reinvesting to earn more 'income' won't be penalized. Large pools of investment money will build up and drive interest rates down. (conservatives claim to believe in suply and demand). Lower interest rates are good for General Motors and the Republican party. ->QUESTION: Will the rich pay their fair share? ANSWER: Yes. ADVANTAGES TO: Left of center stateists. The question was really 'how can we make the rich pay more than I do'? By having a rich life style (conspicuous consumption) the wealthy will pay much more in VAT as the result of having bought more. Liberterians This is a good start , in time we can work for making all tax voluntary. Right of center stateists. The wealthy enjoy being able to display their ability to afford conspicuous consumption. Nothing really changes. Besides capital gains on investments are now FREE of tax. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- <Please restrict followups to a single newsgroup> Dan Wootan
berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) (11/03/84)
Dan Wootan's arguments for a VAT sound reasonable, but being a cynical type I suspect what we will wind up with is income tax just like today AND VAT too! -- Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900
mauney@ncsu.UUCP (Jon Mauney) (11/05/84)
The article on value added tax gives an interesting view of the political possibilities of VAT, but bypasses the question of whether VAT is A Good Thing. As for the logic in the arguments: as soon as I buy a Mack Truck I plan to drive through some of the holes. -- _Doctor_ Jon Mauney, mcnc!ncsu!mauney \__Mu__/ North Carolina State University
kathy@voder.UUCP (Kathy Hale) (11/30/84)
> [] > GIVEN: 1 Our income tax system stinks. (other than CPA' & IRS > agents NO one has a good word to say about it ) > GIVEN: 2 The shoe store sells shoes > GIVEN: 3 Congress sells loopholes (the current tax mess IS the > aggregate of all the past loop-holes congress has sold) > GIVEN: 4 No social institution, least of all the US congress ever > voluntarily gives up political power. > GIVEN: 5 People who babble on about congress passing a 'flat rate > income tax' are hoplessly naive. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone can point out the obvious, what is the answer? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A grass-roots movement to pass a constitutional amendment that > will make all forms of income tax illegal - and replace it dollar for > dollar with a Value Added Tax (VAT). > PROVISIONS: > 1 It is illegal for any state, federal or local government in > the US to tax corporate or individual income in any way. > 2 The VAT maximum total percentage tax is set by a referendum > constitutional amendment and can ONLY be changed by the same process. > This total percentage is the total of all state , federal & local VAT's . > This will have the effect of a NATIONAL prop. 13 > 3 Loophole no.1 staple food items are exempt. (It is legally impossible > to 'add value to' food. > 4 Loophole no.2 items for export are exempt. US VAT is only applied > to items sold in the US. > 5 THERE ARE NO OTHER LOOPHOLES. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > It is essential that this be done as a constitutional amendment, > effectively bypassing the congress. Otherwise the entire exercise will > become counter productive. They will KEEP income tax AND add the VAT ! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ->QUESTION: Isn't VAT just a sales tax? > ANSWER: NO. With a 10% sales tax $2.00 pair of socks cost $2.20 > With VAT a $2.00 pair of socks costs $2.00 > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. VAT retains the one redeeming feature > of personal income tax withholding , it is invisible to the > user. (people are much more enthusiasm about redistribution > of wealth if they don't realize it is THEIR wealth that is > being reassigned.) > Liberterians Anything is better than the current system. > Right of center stateists. A taxpayers revolt is brewing , > there is the ever present danger that the peasants will > turn to the easy answers of socialism if given a chance. > Lock in the status quo with a VAT. > > ->QUESTION: So who pays the tax? > ANSWER: Business (non export or non food) If VAT is 10% and a > business increases the value of its product by $2.00 > then it must send the government 20 cents. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. It will appear to the people that > they pay nothing, and the greedy capitalists get stuck. > Liberterians Those of you who own businesses know that you > send checks to the government all of the time. Nothing > changes. > Right of center stateists. Businessmen will love it. They > get to pass the cost of the VAT directly on to the consumer. > Exports are indirectly subsidized, allowing them to compete > unfairly in the export markets. > > ->QUESTION: Who decides that a business has added value and how much? > ANSWER: The same people you are now dealing with at the IRS . > We just change the name of IRS to something else. VAS?? > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Democrats have been changing the names of > bankrupt social programs for years. Make > it appear that IRS is being abolished. > Reassure IRS agents , CPA's etc. that they > have job security with the new VAT bureau. > (accept lots of money from their PACs) > Liberterians Gradualism is the buzz word , our time will come later. see > below for advantages. > Right of center stateists. This is business as usual. > > ->QUESTION: Who decides what the maximum amount VAT will be? > ANSWER: The people do , with a constitutional amendment. > If it is decided that a fair flat rate tax rate is > 18% then the MAX VAT total tax rate will be 18% > (for example a 100% total VAT would double the cost > of items as seen by the consumer) > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Fairness, hit 'm with fairness , ALL > business appear to pay the same VAT. > Liberterians The government is a gigantic rabid dog that is running > loose and growing in size and ferocity. > A maximum tax rate cast in granite,(by a constitutional > amendment) will fix for all time, the length of the leash > that this dog will be shackled to. > Right of center stateists. Actually they don't , the TOTAL is > fixed by law , what share of the total > any given business will pay is subject > to negotiation.(Endless opportunity for > campaign contributions.) > > ->QUESTION: You mean I get to keep 100% of my income? > ANSWER: YES. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. You can't win them all. But cheer up, > people will sooner or later get tired > of hiding their money in banks and buy > something with it. At that point we can > redistribute their wealth. > Liberterians With big brother out of the income business ,we can achieve > a great measure of personal and financial privacy. There > would be no barriers to passing Swiss style Banking security > laws. > Right of center stateists. Is there an individual or a business man > that won't jump for joy when you tell them > that you have IRS off their back once and > for all. Bankers will give massive campaign > contributions for Banking security laws. > (and a chance to compete for the billions > the Swiss have hidden away) > > ->QUESTION: Is VAT fair? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Everyone pays the same VAT by purchasing > goods in the USA. Everyone pays the same > rate NO exceptions. It is the ultimate > flat rate tax. It is inherently fair. > Liberterians This is better than dealing with the IRS. Lets not oppose > it. With time people will see the advantage of having the > dangerous dog of government on a leash. Then we can begin > pointing out that an even shorter leash will be even better. > Right of center stateists. The VAT cost is hidden in the price of each > item, the effect is the same as inflation. > If the average take home pay is increased > by the same amount as the cost of living > increase, no change in average standard > of living will result. No public outcry. > > ->QUESTION: Can the VAT be evaded? > ANSWER: By individuals, No. (it would be necessary > to smuggle foreign goods to avoid paying > the hidden VAT included in the cost of > all goods for sale in the US) > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. This is all pervasive big brotherism it > will make socialists everywhere feel good > to have thought of a tax that can't be > evaded. > Liberterians Give what is Ceasar's unto Caesar. > Right of center stateists. Conservatives are going nuts trying to stop > the drug industry. There are coke dealers > driving around in Mercedes 450's who don't > pay a dime of tax. It will make the > conservatives feel good to realize they have > thought of a way to tax the multi billion > dollar drug industry. > > ->QUESTION: Will anyone pay VAT who does not now pay tax? > ANSWER: Yes. The entire underground economy will > be taxed at the same rate as everyone else. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Think of all that money just waiting to be > redistribute. > Liberterians The government will soon be unable to get along without this > 'new' money. Legalization is only possible after a wide spread > social acceptance of the 'necessity' of this kind of business. > Right of center stateists. Think of all that money just waiting to be > taxed. > > ->QUESTION: But will VAT feed the poor? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Liberals will claim they were for it all > along. By exempting staple foods from > VAT , food will be held at an artificially > low price. The poor will be able to > feed themselves with much less difficulty. > Liberterians As Liberterians we can argue: Look at what a good deal food > is. If we have our way (eliminate government) all goods > will then become as cheap as food is now. > Right of center stateists. A good cheap way to feed the poor is good > politics.(they remain docile and apolitical) > > ->QUESTION: Will VAT increase exports (help deal with > the massive trade imbalance)? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Liberals have long been crying about foreign > 'dumping' and crying for protectionist > measures. The 'dumping' is not the result > of foreign philanthropy , but rather the > result of foreign VAT's that exempt exported > goods. (a fact that has been kept from > most americans). Liberals will label > the VAT a protectionist measure that gives > 'those foreign capitalists' a dose of their > own medicine. > Liberterians Increased exports are a good thing. > Right of center stateists. American export business is hard hit by > the overvalued dollar. Republicans will > claim they support the VAT because it > is not protectionism but rather an > economic 'incentive' to export. > > ->QUESTION: Will VAT encourage savings and investments > and entrepreneurism? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. None. All of the above mentioned activities > are terrible and must be discouraged. > We will however support the > measure because of its other excellent > socialist features. > Liberterians 100% of your income is yours reguardless of its source. > Very liberterian. Interest, dividends ,capital gains ... > all yours, keep it all. Reinvest to your hearts content > this is capitalism for everyone. > Right of center stateists. People will quit chasing bizarre 'tax free' > investments and tax shelters and simply > put the money where it earns the best return > Reinvesting to earn more 'income' won't > be penalized. Large pools of investment > money will build up and drive interest rates > down. (conservatives claim to believe in suply > and demand). Lower interest rates are > good for General Motors and the Republican > party. > > ->QUESTION: Will the rich pay their fair share? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. The question was really 'how can we > make the rich pay more than I do'? > By having a rich life style (conspicuous > consumption) the wealthy will pay > much more in VAT as the result of > having bought more. > Liberterians This is a good start , in time we can work for > making all tax voluntary. > Right of center stateists. The wealthy enjoy being able to display > their ability to afford conspicuous > consumption. Nothing really changes. > Besides capital gains on investments > are now FREE of tax. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > <Please restrict followups to a single newsgroup> > > Dan Wootan Dan, we don't need some new economic tax scheme or scheme scheme. We heed to return to sound money, sound government, and sound law, to wit: the Constitution. We had a new scheme in 1913 and 1914. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***