[net.taxes] Even more on Schiff stuff

alpert@chovax.DEC (02/21/86)

 
>	Well, not having a copy of the constitution handy, I would greatly
>appreciate it if you would post the text to the 5th amendment (sounds like
>you have it memorized, or at least re-read it regularly). You're right - I
>haven't set eyes on it since Social Studies class a long time ago. I wasn't
>aware that it was a rapidly changing field where we had to keep up with
>the latest textual changes. I may be mistaken, but I thought it said that 
>a person could not be compelled to testify against himself. Please post
>the text and your explanation of what it means.

Sure 'nuf.

What I meant was that the 5th Amendment states that one cannot
be "compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."
Note that this does not necessarily restrict one to withholding
only damaging material, being a "witness against oneself" is
more general than "self-incrimination", or at least so I'm told.

I have by no means memorized the Constitution, but I do have a
copy and do study it.  High school was a long time ago and I, like
most others, was not very interested at the time.  My local A.C.T. 
(Americans for Constitutonal Taxation) sponsors seminars on the 
Constitution which I'll be attending. 

Note that in 1976 in the Garner Vs. United States case, the Supreme
Court stated:

	"The information revealed in the preparation and filing
	 of an income tax return is, for Fifth Amendment purposes,
	 the testimony of a 'witness' as that term is used herein."
 
>>No. However, one dares to hope that a system of taxation that does not
>>involve theft, extortion, threat, and intimidation might someday become
>>a reality. 

>	But simply refusing to pay is hardly going to effect that change.
>When you say "tax rebel", most people think "Posse Comitatus". And when
>you say "Posse Comitatus", most people think "Single digit IQ neo-Nazis".

Not everyone in the tax movement is "simply refusing to pay", though many
are, having determined that they are not among those made liable
for the income tax. Many are involved in putting pressure on public
officials, and attempting to educate the public as to what is going
on.  
 
>	Just out of curiosity, how do you propose that the government
>finance its operation? Seriously - I'm not baiting you, I would truly
>like for my thoughts to be provoked. I agree with you that there are
>aspects that are horrendous, but I haven't heard any reasonable 
>alternatives yet.

For starters, the IRS should have its fangs pulled and placed in
the same position as any creditor seeking to collect past due funds,
that is, having to prove that the disputed amount is actually owed,
and going through the courts to collect if necessary.  This is the
minimum goal that all those in the tax movement agree upon, key
issues here are educating the public as to agency's massive abuses
and putting enough pressure on elected representatives to do something
about it. This is an uphill fight, single legislators have been drummed
out of office by the IRS, it is necessary to convince large numbers
of them that action is necessary.  What chance is there to really
accomplish anything in this area?  At this point, who can say?  I
do know that if people just sit back like sheep, there is no chance
at all.

Beyond that goal, opinions run the gamut from bringing back a very
limited, strictly Constitutional government which will require less
funding, to streamlining the current tax system.  Note that the
Federal government did manage to fund itself without an income tax
until 1913, and did not start stealing (oops, withholding) from
wages until WWII -- a temporary, emergency "Victory Tax."

>>		"Fight Organized Crime -- Abolish the IRS"
>>				-seen on a bumper sticker
> 
>	...and replace it with what?

A reasonable tax collection agency that is bound by the Constitution and
other laws.


As I've stated before, I really can only provide the barest outline
of the tax situation, I have literally thousands of pages of material
and getting more all the time.

Some folks have asked what they can do about all this. I would offer
the following as suggestions for those who have had an interest
sparked:

DON'T
-----

	Don't do anything unless you understand fully what the issues
	are, what the applicable laws are, and what the possible 
	consequences may be if you stand up for your rights.

	In particular, don't stop filing, and don't try to file
	an exempt W-4 form even if you are convinced that you
	are entitled to do so, unless you understand IN DEPTH the 
	reasons for doing so, and the laws that allow you that decision.
	If you do anything, be prepared to argue it in court.

	Don't go to the IRS for answers to Constitutional questions,
	or questions about the way they conduct their business.  You
	will be attracting unwanted attention to yourself and may wind
	up on the "tax protestor list" the IRS uses to target people
	and organisations for harassment.
	
DO
--

	DO study the Constitution and Declaration of independence,
	understand your rights -- and your responsibilities. You
	can't stand up for your rights if you don't know what they
	are.

	DO write your elected representives regarding the behaviour
	of the IRS.  Cite particular cases whenever possible.  However,
	also be aware that letters to public officials regarding the
	IRS are frequently forwarded to that agency.  

	DO find out if there is an A.C.T. or similar organisation in your
	area and attend their public meetings to find out more details
	on what the movement is all about, and what the issues are.
	In New Jersey, A.C.T. can be reached at 609-HAD-ENUF. There
	is also a North Jersey chapter.  However, in all fairness
	I must point out that the IRS does sometimes send agents
	out to such meetings to take down license plate numbers.

I cannot in all honesty say that it is 100% safe to do anything,
the IRS has been known to use a number of methods of identifying
people who might pose a threat to the status quo. (Not that I
want to make anyone too paranoid...)

Some time soon I'll post a short list of organisations in the movement
that can be contacted, and some reccomended reading materials.

			Bob Alpert
			...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-chovax!alpert

	Standard Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed here are my own.