ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) (02/28/86)
<eat this>
I am currently mired in a situation involving the Massachusetts
Registry of Motor Vehicles. In September, 1985, I bought a new car
from a Massachusetts car dealer (I got a good deal). At the time,
I was a Vermont resident (22 years) and I was still living in
Vermont, so I registered the car in Vermont, which involved paying
sales tax to the state of Vermont. I have since moved to
Massachusetts and I need to register my car in Massachusetts. I
went to the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles to get plates,
figuring it would cost about $50 to transfer the registration. I
was wrong! Massachusetts will not register my car until I pay them
5% sales tax on the car, plus penalties and interest. They don't
recognize or give me credit for the sales tax that I paid to Vermont.
Vermont Department of Motor Vehicles won't refund the sales tax that
I paid them. So, the bottom line is that in order to register my
car in Massachusetts, I have to pay the sales tax again.
It seems like this should be illegal. I should only have to
pay sales tax once. There must be some sort of legal precident
against one state taxing you for a sales tax that has already been
paid to another state. My question is: How do I fight this? I
have talked to the Legal Advisory Resource Center of the Boston
Bar Association, who basically said I have to pay again. Talking
to the people at the Registry gets me the response "...Because
it's the law and that's the way it is...Uh-huh Uh-huh" Isn't it
unconstitutional to levy a tax because I have moved? Or to levy
a sales tax twice for the same purchase? I need help and have run
out of ideas...so I'm hoping someone in Netland has a fresh insight
as to how I can get out of this. I have to resolve it by March 15
because I have to get Mass. car insurance by then.
If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018
pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And
if they do, can I say that they refused payment and be able to get
my registration anyway?
Please respond to me directly and I will let you know how this
all turns out.
Sincerely,
Al Ouellette
linus!ao or linus!faron!ao
work phone: 617-863-6938phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (03/02/86)
I imagine Taxachusetts is sticking you with a property tax, not a sales tax.
Much like real estate taxes, the idea is "them that has, can afford to pay".
You don't have much chance of avoiding it...
--
The Hyundai is faster than speeding molasses!
Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720
UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil
ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.comdbp@dataioDataio.UUCP (Dave Pellerin) (03/04/86)
> (Blah, Blah...) > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 >pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And > (...) Hmmm - 626,018 pennies = $6,260.18 = 5% of $125,203.60 !! Gee, what kind of car is that, anyway !!
weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P. Wiener) (03/06/86)
In article <493@faron.UUCP> ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) writes: > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 >pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And >if they do, can I say that they refused payment and be able to get >my registration anyway? From what I've read somewhere, any amount of pennies more than 50 is not legal tender. Furthermore, I've heard, from a student at the school at the time, that Princeton University applied this when one of their seemingly random $50 fees sparked an abortive penny protest, but I do not have the details. ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
daw1@mhuxl.UUCP (Douglas A. Williams) (03/07/86)
> > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 > >pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And > From what I've read somewhere, any amount of pennies more than 50 is > not legal tender. Furthermore, I've heard, from a student at the school OK, so use nickels :-) 1 1 1 1 2 1 Doug Williams 1 3 3 1 AT&T Bell Labs 1 4 6 4 1 Reading, PA 1 5 10 10 5 1 mhuxl!daw1 1 6 15 20 15 6 1
jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) (03/07/86)
In article <493@faron.UUCP> ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) writes: >..., I bought a new car >from a Massachusetts car dealer (I got a good deal). At the time, >... I registered the car in Vermont, which involved paying >sales tax to the state of Vermont. I have since moved to >Massachusetts and I need to register my car in Massachusetts. I >went to the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles to get plates, >figuring it would cost about $50 to transfer the registration. I >was wrong! Massachusetts will not register my car until I pay them >5% sales tax on the car, plus penalties and interest. >... So, the bottom line is that in order to register my >car in Massachusetts, I have to pay the sales tax again. Same thing happened to me. While I was living in DC I bought a car in Maryland. Then I moved to MD and had to pay sales tax again. Then I moved to California and had to pay yet again (fortunately, only on the reduced value of the car, which was 3.5 years old by then). No, there's nothing you can do about it. -- - Joe Buck <ihnp4!pesnta!epimass!jbuck> This sentence is false.
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (03/07/86)
> If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 > pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? Yes, they can refuse. "Non-silver" coins (pennies and nickels) are not legal tender in quantities exceeding 25 cents. Seems kinda silly now that no coins are really made out of silver, and currency is no longer redeemable for silver. -- Doug Pardee -- CalComp -- {hardy,savax,seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!terak!doug
fine@nmtvax.UUCP (Andrew J Fine) (03/07/86)
In article <> weemba@brahms.UUCP (Matthew P. Wiener) writes: >In article <493@faron.UUCP> ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) writes: >> If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 >>pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And >>if they do, can I say that they refused payment and be able to get >>my registration anyway? > >From what I've read somewhere, any amount of pennies more than 50 is >not legal tender. Furthermore, I've heard, from a student at the school >at the time, that Princeton University applied this when one of their >seemingly random $50 fees sparked an abortive penny protest, but I do >not have the details. > >ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720 Are gold coins considered legal tender? I suppose you could protest by dumping gold coins on the taxman and flatter his ego at the same time, as he would scramble to get them sold before the price dropped, or hold out say ten years so the price would go sky high. Andrew Jonathan Fine
gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (03/10/86)
One thing you might do is simply not register your car in the
new state. Massachusetts is notorious for taxing the hell out of
anything; for example, if you live in New Hampshire (which has no
income tax and seems to get along just fine) but work in Mass. then
you must pay Mass. income tax just as if you lived there.
If you maintain a legal residence in your old state (e.g. at a friend's
house or a relative's house) then I believe this is legal.
Besides, when you are stopped for speeding they'll never be able to collect
on the out-of-state tickets...
--
John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa
"You've been in the pipeline, filling in time"roger@celtics.UUCP (Roger Klorese) (03/10/86)
In article <10133@amdcad.UUCP> phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: >I imagine Taxachusetts is sticking you with a property tax, not a sales tax. Actually, it IS a sales tax. Our Common"wealth" assumes that any attempt to import a car into the state within x amount of time (12, 18, or 24 months, I'm not sure) is an attempt to buy out of state and defraud the state. So it charges you sales tax nonetheless, regardless of the reason. -- *** Speak for the company? Naaaah, it's hard enough speaking for ME! *** ... "What were you expecting, rock'n'roll?" Roger B.A. Klorese Celerity Computing, 40 Speen St., Framingham, MA 01701, (617) 872-1772 UUCP: seismo!harvard!bu-cs!celtics!roger, ucbvax!sdcsvax!celerity!celtics!roger ARPA: bu-cs!celtics!roger@harvard.ARPA, celerity!celtics!roger@sdcsvax.ARPA
ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) (03/11/86)
<Surf's Up!> > I am currently mired in a situation involving the Massachusetts >Registry of Motor Vehicles. In September, 1985, I bought a new car >from a Massachusetts car dealer (I got a good deal). At the time, >I was a Vermont resident (22 years) and I was still living in [...] > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 >pennies? > > Please respond to me directly and I will let you know how this >all turns out. Thank you for all the replies. First, let me correct a mistake in the original posting. It should have read 62618 rather than 626018 (Oops!, who typed that extra zero??!?). Well, my tax problem with MA has been resolved. I am now a New Hampshire resident, where they have never heard of sales tax. I got a much nicer apartment too (Why do they call them apartments anyway? They're all stuck together. Maybe they should be called attachments). Bye Bye Massachusetts. Al Ouellette linus!ao or linus!faron!ao "Ain't life peculiar"
eli@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) (03/11/86)
In article <169@epimass.UUCP> jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes: >In article <493@faron.UUCP> ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) writes: >>..., I bought a new car >>from a Massachusetts car dealer (I got a good deal). At the time, >>... I registered the car in Vermont, which involved paying >>sales tax to the state of Vermont. I have since moved to >>Massachusetts and I need to register my car in Massachusetts. I >>went to the Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles to get plates, >>figuring it would cost about $50 to transfer the registration. I >>was wrong! Massachusetts will not register my car until I pay them >>5% sales tax on the car, plus penalties and interest. >>... So, the bottom line is that in order to register my >>car in Massachusetts, I have to pay the sales tax again. > >Same thing happened to me. While I was living in DC I bought a car >in Maryland. Then I moved to MD and had to pay sales tax again. Then >I moved to California and had to pay yet again (fortunately, only on >the reduced value of the car, which was 3.5 years old by then). > >No, there's nothing you can do about it. >-- >- Joe Buck <ihnp4!pesnta!epimass!jbuck> >This sentence is false. This just doesn't sit right with me. Does this mean that I'm going to have to pay sales tax to every state I move to on my new car? What about in 5 or 6 years if I still own it? Lets say I'm a floater and move often. I could conceivably pay more in sales tax than the cost of the car! Something is definitely wrong. What about my other possessions? If they are new too, am I legally obliged to pay a sales tax on those items too whenever I move? Argh! The laws of the land have certainly become convoluted, not to mention unfair... -eli -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: eli@cvl, eli@lemuria, eli@asgard, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: eli@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!eli
johansen@agrigene.UUCP (03/11/86)
> Are gold coins considered legal tender? I suppose you could protest by dumping > gold coins on the taxman and flatter his ego at the same time, as he would > scramble to get them sold before the price dropped, or hold out say ten years > so the price would go sky high. > > Andrew Jonathan Fine *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** The problem with this idea is that gold coins usually have a face value much less than their gold value. Canada issues gold coins with 1/2 ounce of gold with a face value of $100 Canadian (ie US $70). I think the taxman would be pleased to get as many of these as possible for $70 each.
tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) (03/11/86)
> > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 > >pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And If you have a free checking account (and you don't pay for checks) you could send them lots and lots of checks (which they have to process). Also, if banking regulations haven't changed, you can write a check on most anything provided that name, date, bank name, payee and amount are there. I recollect people doing it on watermellons, fish and other items. Of course I don't recommend doing any of these things :). Glenn Tenney
brett@ucla-cs.UUCP (03/12/86)
> > > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 > > >pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And > > If you have a free checking account (and you don't pay for checks) > you could send them lots and lots of checks (which they have to process). > Also, if banking regulations haven't changed, you can write a check on > most anything provided that name, date, bank name, payee and amount are > there. I recollect people doing it on watermellons, fish and other > items. Of course I don't recommend doing any of these things :). > Glenn Tenney If I were a bank branch manager, I would be reluctant to honor a check written on the back of a fish. I would probably try to think of a reason for not cashing it; maybe I would return the check for insuf"fish"ent funds..... Besides where would you keep your cancelled fish? -- Brett Fleisch University of California Los Angeles LOCUS Research Group 3804-f Boelter Hall Los Angeles, CA 90024 Phone: (213) 825-2756, (213) 474-5317 brett@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...sdcrdcf, ihnp4, trwspp, ucbvax}!ucla-cs!brett -------------------------------------------------------------------------
daver@felix.UUCP (Dave Richards) (03/12/86)
In article <753@well.UUCP> tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) writes: >> > If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 >> >pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? And > >If you have a free checking account (and you don't pay for checks) >you could send them lots and lots of checks (which they have to process). >Also, if banking regulations haven't changed, you can write a check on >most anything provided that name, date, bank name, payee and amount are >there. I recollect people doing it on watermellons, fish and other >items. Of course I don't recommend doing any of these things :). >Glenn Tenney Might want to add your account number and signature to the above. Dave
ron@brl-smoke.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (03/13/86)
> > > >Same thing happened to me. While I was living in DC I bought a car > >in Maryland. Then I moved to MD and had to pay sales tax again. Then > >I moved to California and had to pay yet again (fortunately, only on > >the reduced value of the car, which was 3.5 years old by then). > > > This just doesn't sit right with me. Does this mean that I'm going to have to > pay sales tax to every state I move to on my new car? What about in 5 or > 6 years if I still own it? Lets say I'm a floater and move often. I could > conceivably pay more in sales tax than the cost of the car! Well first, in Maryland, once you pay the tax, either at purchase time or when you move into the state, you don't ever have to pay the tax again. This was fortunate as I moved from MD->CO->MD. In Colorado, they make you pay a tax (3% I believe) on the value of your car each year. Needless to say I moved back before it was time to renew. Maryland only charges $20 a year, once you've been titled. -Ron
mike@fluffy.UUCP (Mike Schloss) (03/13/86)
I just recently went through this when moving form NJ to Taxachusettes and bringing my 2 year old Datsun with me. All I had to do to avoid paying sales tax was show them my NJ ownership papers which stated I paid the sales tax in NJ. If you still have all the paperwork you should probably be able to get the money refunded. Good Luck. Mike Schloss panda!enmasse!mike
jdarnold@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Jonathan Arnold) (03/13/86)
I too ran into this same problem when I moved from NH to Mass. However, there are 2 things to remember: 1) This person (as I did) bought the car in Mass. So, just like anything else that this person may have bought in Mass., he is charged a sales tax. If he had come into Mass. to buy a stereo (for instance), he could not get out of paying a sales tax by saying he was from Vermont so he shouldn't have to pay one. 2) In my case, when I proved that I had the car delivered to NH (or I believe if I had in fact bought the car in NH), then there would have been no sales tax. In fact, this was the very case with my motorcycle: I bought it in NH, so when I registered it in Mass, no sales tax! In the Vermonter's case, I believe if he could've come up with some document showing he had paid in Vermont (all I needed was my old NH registration), then he would have been alright. However, this might be just a case of beaurocratic inconsistences.
garry@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Garry Wiegand) (03/13/86)
In a recent article roger@celtics.UUCP (Roger Klorese) wrote: >Actually, it IS a sales tax. Our Common"wealth" assumes that any attempt >to import a car into the state within x amount of time (12, 18, or 24 months, >I'm not sure) is an attempt to buy out of state and defraud the state. So it >charges you sales tax nonetheless, regardless of the reason. Sounds functionally indistinguishable from an import fee or tariff for the privilege of *entering* Massachusetts. Which would, on the face of it, not be legit. (But if you took it to court, there would of course be a prolonged argument. The state would claim the restraint of commerce is merely incidental to their pursuit of their sales tax.) garry wiegand garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu
roger@celtics.UUCP (Roger Klorese) (03/14/86)
In article <604@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >Massachusetts is notorious for taxing the hell out of >anything; for example, if you live in New Hampshire (which has no >income tax and seems to get along just fine) but work in Mass. then >you must pay Mass. income tax just as if you lived there. New Hampshire gets along fine as long as you need no quality education or other social services. I used to work for a real Live-Free-or-Die'er who raised his kids to love the self-sufficient system pushed by old Cow Hampshire. The kids got along fine... till one of THEM had a severely retarded child and needed special education and services... ... so they moved to Taxachusetts. -- *** Speak for the company? Naaaah, it's hard enough speaking for ME! *** ... "What were you expecting, rock'n'roll?" Roger B.A. Klorese Celerity Computing, 40 Speen St., Framingham, MA 01701, (617) 872-1772 UUCP: seismo!harvard!bu-cs!celtics!roger, ucbvax!sdcsvax!celerity!celtics!roger ARPA: bu-cs!celtics!roger@harvard.ARPA, celerity!celtics!roger@sdcsvax.ARPA
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (03/14/86)
<Oh oh here it comes. Watch out boy, it'll chew you up! \ Oh oh here it comes. The LINE EATER! [Line eater]> In article <1081@terak.UUCP>, doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) writes: >> If I end up having to pay this tax, can I pay them 626,018 >> pennies? Can they refuse to accept pennies as legal tender? > >Yes, they can refuse. "Non-silver" coins (pennies and nickels) are >not legal tender in quantities exceeding 25 cents. Seems kinda silly >now that no coins are really made out of silver, and currency is no >longer redeemable for silver. >-- >Doug Pardee -- CalComp -- {hardy,savax,seismo,decvax,ihnp4}!terak!doug So use dimes :-) -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer | at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | -------------------------------- Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, vax135}!ttrdc!levy
jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA (John Purbrick) (03/16/86)
> In article <10133@amdcad.UUCP> phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: > >I imagine Taxachusetts is sticking you with a property tax, not a sales tax. > Actually, it IS a sales tax. Our Common"wealth" assumes that any attempt > to import a car into the state within x amount of time (12, 18, or 24 months, > I'm not sure) is an attempt to buy out of state and defraud the state. So it > charges you sales tax nonetheless, regardless of the reason. This absurd but apparently legal injustice is perpetrated in other places than Massachusetts. A roommate of mine moved from Mass to Pennsylvania a few years ago, and they charged him a sales tax on his car, which he had bought some months earlier in Boston. He was furious, but he had to pay. So don't single out Massachusetts for abuse on this one.
terryl@tekcrl.UUCP (03/17/86)
In article <2586@mit-hermes.ARPA>, jpexg@mit-hermes.ARPA (John Purbrick) writes: > > In article <10133@amdcad.UUCP> phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: > > >I imagine Taxachusetts is sticking you with a property tax, not a sales tax. > > Actually, it IS a sales tax. Our Common"wealth" assumes that any attempt > > to import a car into the state within x amount of time (12, 18, or 24 months, > > I'm not sure) is an attempt to buy out of state and defraud the state. So it > > charges you sales tax nonetheless, regardless of the reason. > > This absurd but apparently legal injustice is perpetrated in other places > than Massachusetts. A roommate of mine moved from Mass to Pennsylvania a > few years ago, and they charged him a sales tax on his car, which he had > bought some months earlier in Boston. He was furious, but he had to pay. > So don't single out Massachusetts for abuse on this one. Believe it or not, that bastion of "mellowness" (California for the uninitiated) does the exact same thing!!! My brother and his wife had three cars (well, two cars and a truck) between the two of them, and since they both work at the same place, they decided to give my parents one of the cars. Now, my brother and his wife have been living in California for over two years, BUT THEY STILL HAD TO PAY STATE SALES TAX!!! I thought California was supposed to be a little more "considerate" of the people, but I guess not!!!! Luckily, though, they were able to put down their own price for the car. A mildewy former Californian
wjr@frog.UUCP (Bill Richard, Software) (03/25/86)
In article <493@faron.UUCP> ao@faron.UUCP (Alan R. Ouellette) writes: >..., I bought a new car >from a Massachusetts car dealer (I got a good deal). At the time, >... I registered the car in Vermont, which involved paying >sales tax to the state of Vermont. I have since moved to >Massachusetts and I need to register my car in Massachusetts. ... >Massachusetts will not register my car until I pay them >5% sales tax on the car, plus penalties and interest. >... So, the bottom line is that in order to register my >car in Massachusetts, I have to pay the sales tax again. First: I am aware that ao@faron posted a note that he had solved his problem, but I have some general info about Mass. sales tax and car registration that might be useful to others. The gist of it is that you don't have to pay sales taxes twice. You can get credit for sales tax paid to another state. However if the tax you paid is less than the Mass. tax you will have to pay the difference. If you have ownd the car out of state long enough you can get the tax waived entirely. (I don't know exactly how long but from experience ~2.5 years is long enough.) The problem is that the people at the Registry of Motor Vehicles probably won't tell you any of this, and in any case they can't give you the credit. What you have to do is find an office of the State Tax Assesor (I think that's the right name.) and take them your application for registration and proof of the sales tax you paid to another state and ask them for an abatement of the tax. Hope this helps someone. ---- William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems 983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701 Tel: (617) 626-1112 uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr