woods (01/20/83)
I think this is clearly a case of something being carried WAY too far!
I would call this "feminist paranoia". These days I really don't know what
to do anymore. I would probably hold the door for a male as well if I reached
it first. It's not chivalry, it's common courtesy.
Calling that "sexual harassment" is ridiculous and totally without foundation.
Besides, some women still like to be treated like ladies in the traditional
sense, even while maintaining their independence. We are in the middle of a
great social change in the nature of male-female relationships, and overreac-
tions like this are a symptom of social upheaval.
GREG
ucbvax!hplabs!hao!woods
menlo70!hao!woods
harpo!seismo!hao!woods
decvax!brl-bmd!hao!woodssdo (01/20/83)
Could someone please clarify the door-holding issue? There is a
difference between holding the door open until the person behind you
catches up (but going through first, yourself) and holding the door
open and letting the other person go through first.
If a man only applies the second case to women, whether or not they
are encumbered with packages, then some women can justifiably claim
that this is a form of harassment.
On the other hand, and based on personal experience, if a man doesn't
apply the second case to women, then some women claim that this is
rude.
This goes for opening car doors also.
The solutions depend on whether or not you are with the person who
is holding-the-door/having-the-door-held for you. The rules I am
proposing are as follows:
1. If you are with the other person, or just know the other person,
for both your sakes, ask what to do/expect before a misunderstanding
develops.
2. If you are a man, never hold the door (second definition) for a
stranger.
3. If you are a woman, and you don't want men holding doors for you,
and a man does, accept it as part of the mans old fashioned behavior.
You might even want to thank him.
4. If you are a woman, and you want men to hold the door for you,
and one doesn't, accept this as a man who is following rule #2.
5. If the man holding the door is wearing a uniform and cap, it's
his job, so thank him and give him a tip.
6. If someone posts an article about this subject, and you disagree,
and you see this person following you through a doorway, slam the
door in his/her face.
Scott Orshan
Bell Labs Piscataway
201-981-3064
houxm!u1100a!sdoqa812oda (01/20/83)
RULE 0: ONLY USE REVOLVING DOORS , and try not to get stuck in them. L. S. Kaufman
jss (01/20/83)
i agree 97% with graeme's letter on the subject. we usually can tell that a man is opening the door to patronize us when he pushes us out of the way to get at it (slight exaggeration; it's actually a kind of dance step). remember that everyone is not as sensible as thee and me. there *are* men who would prefer breaking a woman's arm to letting her hold a door for them, however laden they might be, and women who will stand there watching a laden man struggle for a door, and we have to live in the same world with them.
rogerw (01/21/83)
At the opposite extreme, I remember once a friend told me he was severely scolded by a young lady for NOT holding the door for her; she was wearing a very feminist T-shirt at the time. --Roger Wells [tektronix!tekid!rogerw]
iy47ab (01/21/83)
That's silly. It is a compliment to anyone (male or female) to open the door for them; it shows respect and consideration. Pardon me, but said female is incredibly uptight. If your intense liberation is interfering with your enjoyment of life, it's time to take a good, long look at why you're so into it. Lady Arwn try that again... Lady Arwen of U.C. San Diego
iz328 (01/21/83)
I really don't understand this attitude. What could possibly be wrong
with showing respect fo another person? Opening doors for women seems to
be a compliment; at least, that's how I've always intended it. Perhaps this
woman really believes that having doors opened for her incurs an
obligation to males, or maybe she just Hates Men and wouldn't be caught
dead having anything to do with them.
Methinks that "equality" has gone a bit too far, if people have to
feel sensitive about such things. I open doors for women as a gesture of
respect, and I do the same for elderly people and sometimes for anyone
(*Gasp!*) because I get there first. Also, while it's probably true that
the typical man opens doors for all ladies, he probably neglects to seat
her or open car doors for her unless she's his wife or girlfriend or
mother, so there's a strong element of favoring those you love or care
about mixed in with these customs now.
Perhaps such customs are technically "sexist", but I can't see anything
really Wrong with it- Can't I do these small favors for women just because
they're wonderful?
Jack of Shadows. (UCSD)ee173bl (01/21/83)
I tend to agree with Lady Arwen and Jack of Shadows; not to attack our lady who is nervous about doors being opened for her, but 'too much of anything, Lieutenant, even liberation isn't necessarily a good thing'. Now, please don't misread me, I AM NOT AN MCP; I would just like to propose a tempering modification to what I believe I read as your concept of liberation, to wit: Liberation- that state of being and mental frame in which the behavioral norm is that of nice people being nice to and considerate of each other, without regard for any category at all, and solely responding to the other people AS PEOPLE. I try to follow this personal concept of liberation in my daily life, and am (hopefully) successful. May I submit it for your thoughtful consideration? With respect and felicitations, Nate Lee (sdccsu3:ee173bl)
done (01/21/83)
Is there any real answer to this controversy? Suppose I open a door for
some young lady (female person-unit?), with the intent to be courteous,
and she interprets it as harassment. Is it really courtesy or harassment?
Consider again if I open a door for someone, truly having the desire to
harass, and she interprets it as a common courtesy.
It seems to me that the intent behind an action is the important thing,
not how somebody else INTERPRETS that intent. If they prefer to impute
dishonorable motives to honorable acts, that's THEIR problem, not mine.
I see no reason to let someone else's confused set of values interfere
with my own, especially for actions which would benefit them.
Don Ellis tektronix!teklabs!donejgpo (01/21/83)
I, personally, have held many a door for members of both sexes, always out of common courtesy and politeness, with no conscious motive of patronization on my part. I have also had many a door held for me, also by members of both sexes, without any hint of damage to my fragile masculine ego. In short, as far as I am concerned, the entire door question is a non- issue. This is not to say that there are no patronizing treat-women- like-helpless-bits-of-fluff types running around. There are a few but, fortunately, they are a minority. As several contributors to this discussion have pointed out, it is usually easy to discern the true motives of the door-holder. Please, people. The question of sexual harassment is an important one. It does exist and must be eliminated, for the benefit of men as well as women. This is too important an issue to be trivialized. John Opalko BTL - Naperville
ejw (01/21/83)
I think that any woman who feels sexually harassed by a man opening a door for her should seriously examine her values. Being male I haven't had to deal with sexual harassment (and so I am clearly coming from a different per perspective), but I consider it a nice gesture when someone of any sex holds a door open for me. Most women I know feel the same way.
tim (01/24/83)
Net.doors anyone? Seriously, don't you think this has gone on for long enough? The articles are all "Absolutely! Door-opening is okay by me!" or else "Obviously feminist zealots are taking themselves too seriously." At least do the following when submitting an article of this type: use a null message, and a subject "Type 1" or "Type 2". Is there really anything more to say on this? Tim
norskog (01/25/83)
#R:hou5a:-21500:fortune:17200001:000:36 fortune!norskog Jan 24 19:10:00 1983 MOTTS? Member Of The Terrible Sex?
kink (01/25/83)
I am male. A picture is a picture... big deal. I wouldn't particularly want a picture of some guy with a huge organ hanging in my office, but if someone else had one, that is their business, and if I had to walk in there, I'd live with it. As for nude females, to me they are a combination of an art form and a stimulant. They don't belong in the board room of General Motors, but in a semi-private office, lab, or other semi-informal place I don't see any problem, though personally, I would tire of them in a rather short time. Andy Papp (kink) seismo or allegra ! rochester ! kink
iy47ab (01/25/83)
Personally, I don't consider pictures of men or women degrading or upsetting. Look, we are all human. Just because someone has a picture of Raquel Welch or even a Playboy bunny pasted on their wall does not mean they have a low view of women; I know, my dear friend Shadowjack has the former. If that person begins treating women in a compromising manner, then that is different. Similarly, if said picture is posted where it would disturb others. And the reverse is true, for women harrassing (?) men. If you aren't hurting anyone, why complain? We all have sexual feelings. Lady Arwen of U.C. San Diego
jwb (01/25/83)
I don't give a damn what the person in the office next to me posts, does or says as long as they're quiet.
denise (01/25/83)
I am female and I see nothing wrong in posting sexually explicit photos in out of the way places, if the office where this is done does not deal with the public. Where I used to work my boss had a very nice digitized picture of Miss September (an old one) on his wall, nobody objected to it yet at the school I used to go to they had the same picture (and a few others posted on the walls in the computer lab and one of the female instructers complained. (They were not taken down.)
rjs (01/25/83)
Last night, I took my car battery to the store to get it replaced. The battery was very heavy, so when two young women who happened to get to the doors before me opened them, I felt relieved, not harrassed. Robert (can you guess my sex) Snyder floyd!rjs
norskog (01/26/83)
#N:fortune:17200002:000:182 fortune!norskog Jan 25 17:57:00 1983 Here in Northern California, when I hold a door open for a woman, the usual response is surprise. (I'm 6'3", 22 yrs., and have dark long hair. I seem to be a little intimidating.)
jss (01/27/83)
An anecdote on the subject, such as it is: a few years ago one of the men in our lab had a large Playmate picture (on a wooden base, yet), displayed in one of the offices. i do not offer any explanation as to WHY we found it disquieting, but the one other woman who worked there and I did (maybe we were intimidated because we didn't look anything like that). Whenever one of us worked in the same room with it, we turned it toward the wall. Whenever the boss worked in that room, he turned it face outward. (he wasn't the one who brought it in, by the way) after much discussion between ourselves, Karyl brought in a large nude, full- front photo from Playgirl, and we taped it to the back of the wooden base. we set it up and waited. the next day our boss came in as we were working there, talked for several minutes about whatever business was relevant. suddenly he noticed our pin-up. "That's filthy!" he said. We turned it around. "Why isn't SHE filthy?" Long silence. "That's different!" We stuck the pictures behind a filing cabinet after that. they are both still there, i suppose. or maybe not.
geo (01/29/83)
I thought I would post my two cents worth. It seems to me that posting sexually explicit pictures of women in your workplace is tantamount to saying thinking women are not welcome. I would not expect women to "be a good sport" about such things. I do not laugh at things I do not think are funny. I do not laugh at jokes directed at myself. I think it is rude to put a person in the position where they have to choose whether to confront you (a very heavy thing) or sell themselves short. We were all bullied when we were kids weren't we? Posting sexually explicit pictures of the opposite sex is bullying, pure and simple. So there, Geo Swan, Integrated Studies, University of Waterloo
dag (02/01/83)
I have been accused of "Sexually Harassing" female associates by one rather militant feminist in the office. The act that I was called out for was smiling. I'm a freindly sort, and tend to try to smile when greeting freinds, and even some who aren't freinds. Both male and female. It would seem to these people who find what I do as harassment, that any act I perform while being nice to anyone who is not male is harassment. The list of things that I was told by this associate that proved that I was a sexist jerk were: Referring to my "romantic" interest as my "Girlfriend" Finding attractive women attractive (I'm not vocal about it, nor do I gaze or stare. I don't discuss women with other men in the office.) Smiling Holding doors (I do it for both men and women...) Asking a friend in the office if she would care to join me for dinner. Not understanding this person's objections. This same person is continually trying to save my soul (I'm jewish) from eternal damnation and such. Is there anything to be said about religious harassment? I don't mind christmas decorations, but I don't need to have my time wasted arguing about divinity and such. Also, I'm the next-to-youngest person in the office and the youngest single in the office. Since I moved to New England, I've had no local romantic relationships, and as a result I don't get invited to parties and am referred to as a youngster. (I'm 23.) Is this also harassment? Daniel Glasser ...!decvax!sultan!dag
mat (02/02/83)
I may be alone in this, but how do sexually explicit photos of the opposite sex in the office translate to ``bullying'' ? Also, how do various people define ``explicit''? Is there ART which could be displayed without offense? Can we expand this discussion a little? -hou5a!mat
kevenb (02/03/83)
If we should not post photos of the human body, then let us not post those religious "inspirational" posters, or photo's of nature which might upset industrialists, or photos of industry which might upset naturalists, etc etc. Be safe, paint your walls white, and don't use any posters, paintings or whatever. In fact don't paint them white, because some people like black better. Just leave them plain. Thats safe, and won't offend anyone but interior decorators.
ee161ln (02/05/83)
Harresmest?
I define harresment as doing something to someone which you
KNOW they would not like. If I open a door for someone, knowing
that they would not like this, then I am guilty of harresment!
If I open a door for someone, not knowing that they would not
like this, then I am NOT guilty of harresment.
Last year(I think) Analog had an article in the Alternate View-
point section on ethics and morals. It had a discussion on what
changes in our moral system are needed to enable us to coexist
peacefully with non-human intelligent species. One of the results
was a modification of the 'golden rule':
Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.
In general this seems to be a much better version then what we
currently use. Advantage: I don't like people trying to save my
soul, under the old rule a person who would want someone to save
him/her if he was unsaved would have to attempt to save me, under
the new rule he/she would leave me be. Disadvantage: consider a
person who wished to commit suicied, under the old rule we could
stop them, under the new rule he would have to help them.( is this
truly a disadvantage!)
Ponderingly yours
Don Coleman
UC @ San Diego
{ ucbvax, philabs }!sdcsvax!sdccsu3!ee161lnjj (02/06/83)
I really loathe white walls. Suggesting that all walls be painted white makes me feel harassed. So there. Seriously, pictures of the Grand Canyon are not in the same class as pictures of a nude human. The attempt to relate them resembles a process that I once heard about called "trivialization". Grump.
ee161gr (02/08/83)
Although this subject is just about beat to death, I just wanted to say just I agree with Sonya and Lady Arwen. I see nothing wrong with Photos of Nude people in some type of semi-private place. Its my feeling that the decor of an office or place of business is a reflection upon the person working there. It's that person's personality that is showing. I would feel much more comfortable in a room that has personality, than a room that looks sterile (ie. plain walls). just putting my two bits in... Larry (UC San Diego)
steve (02/15/83)
#R:fortune:17200002:zinfandel:14900001:000:313
zinfandel!steve Feb 15 07:46:00 1983
"Harresmest?
I define harresment as doing something to someone which you
KNOW they would not like."
Well, a new word is born every day. But this one seems to be close
enough (sort of) to an existing word, harassment, that I'm not sure
we need a new one.
Just harresmesting you,
Steve Nelsonstoltz (02/21/83)
The problem with your defintion (harassment is known to be such by the harasser) is that there are patterns of harrassment ingrained in our society. It is possible to harrass someone without even knowing it. It it very easy to play the roles outlined for us in television, radio, music, by our parents and friends. You don't know what some one else has experienced in their life and what they will interpret as harressment. It may be quite painful for a women if they havebeen repeatedly been attacked by men for you to even to say hello to them. I don't remember who it was who said it, but in a high school sociology class I remember hearing that reality is what one preceives it to be or somthing like that. I thinl that harrassment is much the same way. It causes the harrasser no pain to harrass, but the pain and humilation in the harrasser can vary quite a but. the world is so cold and unfeeling. If the woman down the hall from you feels offended please understand. You have to realize that women have been discriminated against for a few thousand years as have men. Just as women have been protrayed as weak and mindless sex objects, men have been pprtrayed as rough, cruel, and unfeeling brutes. We are all humans (as much as you may doubt it). Please act like it. If a picture in some ones office offends you ask youself why and tell the person who put it there why. If you do nothing to inform that person how you feel you are as responsible as they are. If they do nothing about it then they are a two dimensional cut out playing a role as old as the hills (or you are unjustified). e