afo@pucc-k (Flidais) (11/22/84)
(I'll have a prepared statement for you in the morning)
Comes a time in everyone's life when they have to face the dread
duty of either:
1. Introducing their current SO to the parentals,
..or..
2. Being introduced to the SO's parentals.
These days, it seems as this can be especially nerve-wracking, as,
when you were in high school (so many years ago), at least you were
in the same general vicinity as the SO. So, if things didn't work
out, you could at least beat a hasty retreat to the local whatever.
However, these days, now only is it likely that you are going to be
1,000 miles down the road from your parents, it is quite likely that
your SO is going to be a few miles down the road from you
(experience talking, here). So, you might spend a few months trying
to describe your SO to your mother, while trying to convince her
that you are *not* going out with the Hillside Strangler. *And*
trying to convince your family that things can work out when you're
three time zones different.
Now, here comes the hard part. The actual meeting of SO and
parentals. Right after you have digested the last of your stomach,
your SO gets off the plane (out of the car with you, whatever), and
you look with fear into your parent's eyes. *sigh* Well, your
family is now convinced that you haven't dropped off the deepend
after all. Now the light conversation starts, and the inevitable
(yes, sooner or later, someone will blab it out) 'so, what *are*
your future plans'. ohboy.....
Now, by this time you and your SO have decided that you aren't quite
ready for happy wedlock-hood, but that won't deter you from sharing
the living quarters at this time.....
Now, how exactly would you (did you) handle this sort of situation?
Obviously, this can cause a world-class arguement amongst the
family, especially when parentals are into the notion that only 'bad
girls (yes! double standard!)' 'live in sin'. Is there a calm, and
rational way of discussing such matters, or do you just send a
postcard with your new address after you have moved in (not too
practical if the move is 2000 miles away)
Answers, anyone?
--
Laurie Sefton
{harpo,ihnp4,allegra,decvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!afo
I am the sword, the spear, the arrow. You are the flower, the tree,
the vine! Never will I, or anyone force you to be other than what
you are -Never Again!rbg@cbosgd.UUCP (Richard Goldschmidt) (11/25/84)
About how to tell them you will be living together...
I go for the direct (i.e., blunt) approach. I have wrangeled over this
issue several times with my mother (my dad didn't care). Why should the
government (or your parents) interfere in anyone's private relationships.
I have argued that children may need the legal protection of marriage, but
that otherwise it is an anachronism. Ask if they would rather have the
possibility you getting divorced relatively soon rather than just splitting
up. Are they willing to foot the bill? Just thinking about making lawyers
rich is enough to turn almost anyone's stomach! Besides, since they have
little effective control, most parents eventually relent, unless the potential
spouse is of the wrong sex, religion or color, in which case they have been
known to disown.
I have found that sleeping arrangements during visits home are a MUCH more
contentious issue. I finally convinced my mother just this Thanksgiving.
We were talking about one of her best friends of many years standing, whose
husband died while in public service. As a result, the government gives her
a generous pension, on the condition that she does not remarry. So I asked
my mom if she was going to ask her friend and her friend's current SO to
sleep in separate rooms when they come to visit. She finally saw the light.
But not until after the usual midnight visits ("hey, don't moan so loud,
you'll wake the rents"), and the occasional boycotts ("well we sleep together
at home, why should we come if you don't respect our relationship"). It
appears that the basic issue is one of adulthood, and their acceptance of it.
I guess a Bar Mitzvah just isn't good enough anymore...
Rich Goldschmidt {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax,allegra} !cbosgd!rbg
ARPA: cbosgd!rbg@ucbvaxjamcmullan@wateng.UUCP (Judy McMullan) (11/27/84)
I did, more or less, just sent a postcard!! I was 500 miles away.
I did not want to face a big argument and simply sent a letter saying my new
room-mate was to be my Significant Other.
The fur flew!! It was bad enough from a distance -- I'm GLAD I didn't tell
them when I was visiting. After the tears and accusations were over, the
upshot was, they didn't approve but realized it was my choice.
It was never calm but it did get rational. They said
they would not visit at my apartment -- part of their statement of
disagreement with my lifestyle, and they never did. There were a few little
jesting digs from time to time but mainly we just didn't discuss it after
that.
Of course, when my sister's lover moved in with her, a few years later
there wasn't a big hassle. They still disapproved but no big scenes.
--from the sssstickkky keyboard of JAM
...!{ihnp4|clyde|decvax}!watmath!wateng!jamcmullansaquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (11/27/84)
Re: telling your parents you will be living with your SO.
I have only done this once, but might be doing this again sometime in the
near future. I have found that what worked best with my parents was to
threaten to get married instead. They were actually relieved that I was
"only" going to live with a man. Of course I don't know what I'll have
to do if I ever want to get married, but we'll see when the time comes
(maybe I'll threaten to have a child out of wedlock instead, or become
a lesbian - that should probably do it).
Re: sleeping arrangements.
That is a trickier one as it is THEIR house so in a way they have a right
to make the rules. My parents feel they have to accept my SOs as family
members before they can let them sleep with me in their appartment.
I do agree that this is all a question of them refusing to accept their
children's adulthood. One problem I was having for a long time with my
parents was of a complete disregard for my sleeping habits. They usually
sleep from 11 to 7 and I usually sleep from 1 to 9-10. Whenever I was
staying with them, I would always make a clear effort to be very quiet
from 11 to 1 so as not to wake them up, but they would usually MAKE A
POINT of trying to wake me up when they woke up, by turning the music
on loud, going into my room to get things, or simply knocking on the
door saying it was time to wake up. After I'd get up, a usual string of
sarcastic comments would follow: about being lazy, getting fat, wasting the
best time of the day, about breakfeast not being served after a certain hour
(before we woke up of course) etc.. Of course my SOs at the time would be
subjected to the same kind of abuse since we kept the same hours. (all of
this on holidays!). Then of course they would wonder about why we never
stayed very long with them, but when given the answer would complain that
we were being "difficult" with our "little habits" and should be "more
adaptable".
I tried reasonning with them, pointing out that I respected their sleep
when I was awake, so why couldn't they do the same, but they always
discarded my objections because I am "young" (and therefor unworthy of
basic respect I guess...). Then, something happened: my SO and I
invited them for a few days to stay with us. We gave them our bedroom,
and slept in the other bedroom, and were very courteous to them, not
disturbing them when they were asleep, and making a point to be nice
about that kind of thing. They got to see that we had our own life
with our own home and our own lifestyle and that must have impressed
on them somehow because after that they never bothered us again when
we stayed with them.
So it seems that sometimes parents lack a lot of imagination. It is only
when faced with the facts visually that they will begin to recognise
their children's adulthood. And probably this cannot be done in their own
home since it is THEIR turf, and it is the place where roles are very well
defined, they being the parents, and us being the children. In my case,
things changed considerably when they happened in MY territory, so I
would recommend turning parents into guests as a very good start to having
them accept their children as adults.
Sophie Quigley
...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigleychuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (11/27/84)
[3 hours, 17 minutes, 23 seconds-- not bad.... ] >Comes a time in everyone's life when they have to face the dread >duty of either: > > 1. Introducing their current SO to the parentals, > > ..or.. > > 2. Being introduced to the SO's parentals. Two separate issues here, and they need to be dealt with in separate but coordinated ways. If that makes no sense, excuse me, but it's been a long day... > 1. Introducing their current SO to the parentals, Sometimes this simply never works out. Parental units sometimes have severe blind spots, such as believing that their 'little baby' is still little, still virginal, still under their control, or still unable to make their own decisions. Part of this seems to be the problem that when a parental unit admits to their kid growing up, they have to admit to themselves that they are getting older. How many of you have mothers that still pretend to be 29? or 39? (I was retroactively adopted a number of years ago-- fortunately in jest...). The apron strings are very hard for some people to let go of, and sometimes it is even harder still to get the parents to recognize that the apron has been let go of. Well, onward and sideways. If you are lucky, you can sit down with your parental unit and say ~parental unit, I'm in love and I'm moving to California to be near him~ and have the parental unit say ~God speed, dearest child, our love goest with you!~ Fat chance. The normal response I seem to get is ~Again? Well, one of these times you'll HAVE to get it right....~ The most normal reaction I've heard from friends seems to be somewhere between a screech and a gurgling howl. Well, if you are in the unenviable spot of being the one meeting the parental unit(s), what do you do? First, and most important, listen to your SO. Rule one is to learn as much about your passlq-in-laws to minimize the chance of a major faux paux. All it takes is one, and you're dead for life. Smile a lot, agree a lot, and be as painfully pleasant as possible. Reality can wait until after they get used to you. Remember that they are most likely going to consider you a whore or a rapist REGARDLESS of what you say or do. Having a congressional medal of honor or the nobel peace prize helps, but not much. There are occasions when you meet a set of parents that are open, honest, and a real joy to be with. If so, open up and enjoy. I was lucky enough to have that with my ex-wife's family. Everyone should be so lucky. Few are. Probably the key is to remember that the fate of the free world rests upon your interview with 'THE PARENTS.' Or at least pretend it does. If the parents are important enough to even attempt to get on your side, you need to go out of your way to win them over. You probably will with time, but the good first impression is critical to making this an easier thing to do. > 2. Being introduced to the SO's parentals. The critical person in this is the SO. He/she needs to do as much as possible to pre-approve you to their parents. It might (probably won't) work, but lots of nice, wonderful comments help (leave the sex life out of this). Letters of reference, notarized, help. Bribes don't, neither does yelling. Quiet logic (~No, I CAN'T find someone in my own state to live with~) sinks in eventually, usually. Keep your SO informed-- there is nothing worse than walking into a replay of the Nuremburg trials. Help your SO find areas of common interest (if any-- exclusive of your SO, of course) to talk about to prove you are human. Warn them of specific quirks (Dad believes that Nixon was a crook, Mom that he was hung out to dry-- no Watergate jokes!) and problem areas to avoid. Be supportive, you'll both need it. >Now the light conversation starts, and the inevitable >(yes, sooner or later, someone will blab it out) 'so, what *are* >your future plans'. ohboy..... > >Now, by this time you and your SO have decided that you aren't quite >ready for happy wedlock-hood, but that won't deter you from sharing >the living quarters at this time..... Many parents aren't as worried about this as they used to. I've found that discussing the current sad state of the world, divorce statistics, high cost of divorce lawyers, and the hassles involved in breakups to be light and diverting reparte in getting to this very subject. I've also been tossed out of many homes, so it doesn't always work (not that I'm constantly trying to move in with people-- I do this for friends, too, on a consulting basis... :->) >do you just send a >postcard with your new address after you have moved in (not too >practical if the move is 2000 miles away) Sometimes the only possibility. If the parents are dogmatic and simply won't listen, sometimes it is better to simply not subject your SO to them until you've proven the relationship a while. If ever. I've seen a couple of very stable long term relationships blown up by parents-- as important as your relationship to your parents is (and it IS a very important relationship, whether you admit it or not, just ask maslow) there are circumstances where getting the acceptance of your parents is more trouble than it is worth. sigh. chuq -- From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (11/27/84)
>I have found that sleeping arrangements during visits home are a MUCH more >contentious issue. I finally convinced my mother just this Thanksgiving. >We were talking about one of her best friends of many years standing, whose >husband died while in public service. As a result, the government gives her >a generous pension, on the condition that she does not remarry. So I asked >my mom if she was going to ask her friend and her friend's current SO to >sleep in separate rooms when they come to visit. She finally saw the light. >But not until after the usual midnight visits ("hey, don't moan so loud, >you'll wake the rents"), and the occasional boycotts ("well we sleep together >at home, why should we come if you don't respect our relationship"). It >appears that the basic issue is one of adulthood, and their acceptance of it. Actually, it is MUCH more complicated that simple adulthood. If you really want them to accept your values, you must accept theirs as well. Some parents just can't accept two unmarried people sleeping together, but they can mostly ignore it if you don't shove it under their nose. If this is a REAL problem, stay in a motel. You get your point across, but you do it in a nice way with a minimum of hurt feelings. There is another complicating factor-- children or their equivalent. In my case, when I take my SO to meet my parents later this month, we'll be staying there in separate quarters because my mothers father is living there as well. He is old and mostly an invalid and simply couldn't accept the situation. With children, your parents have the right to bring them up as they wish, and watching two unmarried people sleep together may be morally unjustified to them. Again, you can't shove it under their nose, and trust me, you can't really hide it. If you can't work out a reasonable compromise (separate guest rooms with connecting doors, for instance), then the only REAL alternative is a motel. Everyone has a right to live their life the way they see best, and that includes parents. If your views deserve respect, so do theirs. It is, as always, a two way street. chuq -- From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~
agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta) (11/27/84)
While I have no personal experience in the matter, I think I could
predict my parents reaction with out much difficulty.
First off, a little background:
For a year, I lived with a girl, on a purely non-sexual basis. this was
understood from the start, and we both repsected each other's privacy.
We slept in separate rooms, but had no problem with discussions on
policy within the apartment, etc, and occasionally had dinner together.
Now, my parents, while not overly thrilled with the idea ("How do WE
know nothing is going on?"), accepted it without much problem. the only
difference I really noticed was that, as opposed to other years and
other roommates, they continually asked "How are things going with you
two?" The answer was always the same, things were fine. She got
married at the end of that year, and moved out.
Now, while my parents claim to be rather "old-fashioned", I get the
feeling that they actually have pretty liberal feelings toward this. I
think that if I informed them that I had intentions of having a girl
move in with me (*I* would NEVER give up my apartment :-), they would
show "parental concern" about the amount of work I get done, and such
things as potential children (is that coining a phrase?), but would
eventually see that there was no great harm (if there was great harm,
they would inform me). I don't think that they would "disown" me for
any real reason, regardless of who the girl was. Now, concerning my
brothers and sisters, this attitude would change. I know for a fact
that they would not be at all happy with the prospect of my sister
(older that I am) moving in with a guy, but that is they way they have
always worked. Each child in my family was treated differently: not in
an unfair sense, but they were treated differently because my parents
realized that we were each different.
I don't think that I could make a very educated comment on meeting
parents, seeing as it has only happened once in my life, and was not an
unpleasant or terribly memorable experience ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Banta {decvax!allegra!ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-k!agz
Dept. of Mental Instability, Purdue University --- "I'm OK, You're a CS Major"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------beth@umcp-cs.UUCP (Beth Katz) (11/27/84)
According to Miss Manners and practical experience, you should follow
the dictates of the host and hostess when visiting if at all possible.
That means that you honor your parents values and sleep in separate
rooms if your parents want it that way. You sleep together the rest
of the time, can't you be apart for a little while? Miss Manners also
says that meanderings in the night should be ignored. Haven't you
learned anything about discretion?
Why is it so important to shove your values in your parents' faces?
(I am NOT flaming. I've gone through this with a number of parents
when I have lived with people. We tried to be cool about it, and few
problems developed.) There are probably better things to discuss when
you first meet than your living arrangements. After they get to know
you better, you will have time to discuss that. Let them bring up the
subject. Some parents just don't want to know even though they suspect.
If they haven't been told explicitly, they don't have to condone it. I
know that this is ignoring the issue, but some people feel more comfortable
not facing those issues. If you end up discussing the issue, the other
suggestions made in other postings are reasonable. Eventually you will
tell your parents, but let them determine when they are ready to handle it.
This reminds me of the New Years get-togethers at some friends' house.
They slept in their master bedroom, but there was only one other double
bed. The couple that was together the least (long distance or whatever)
got the double bed. We all figured that the married or posslq people
slept together the majority of the time, so they could sleep in twin beds
or in sleeping bags for the few nights of the visit. It just made sense.
Enjoy the holidays. Beth Katz
{seismo,allegra,rlgvax}!umcp-cs!bethwoods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) (11/27/84)
Since I've just been through this with my new SO, I think I can add to
this discussion. One possibility that no one has suggested so far is, why
not have your SO meet your parents on *your* turf? This is what I did,
when my mother came to visit me for Thanksgiving (my father is dead).
In this event, the parents have to accept *your* values, so you get
this kind of stuff out of the way and your SO and your parents can
get on to evaluating each other as people. The second suggestion I have
is not to worry about it. If you believe there will be problems, then
you will probably end up creating them so that you can be right about
your belief. (I've seen in the last few weeks just what lengths people
are willing to go to and what suffering they are willing to endure just
to be right about their beliefs, but that is another issue). Just relax,
and don't have any expectations. If you love your parents and your SO,
there is no reason why they shouldn't be predisposed to like each other,
since they all love *you* (hopefully! :-) It's amazing how people create
obstacles to put in their way, before they even come up. I can see from
reading the articles posted on this topic so far that most of you (the earlier
posters) are doing just that.
In my case, I didn't worry about it, and my mother and sister both
loved my SO, and she liked them as well. We continued sleeping together
while my mother was here (of course, it helped that my mother was staying
at a hotel, which had more to do with the fact that I live in a one
bedroom condo than it did with my SO being there).
The moral issues never came up, because no one wanted to destroy all the
fun and love we were experiencing.
The key to all this is not to worry about it. If you do, it is likely
to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't say to your mother, "I really
hope you like my SO", as if you were expecting that she might not, and
don't say to your SO, "My mother has never liked any of my girlfriends
before", as if you are expecting the same thing to happen this time.
Go into it realizing that you are the common link here. These people all
care about you, so they already have one very important thing in common.
Exploit this to the max. Expect that they will like each other and they
probably will. Go for it.
--Greg
--
{ucbvax!hplabs | allegra!nbires | decvax!stcvax | harpo!seismo | ihnp4!stcvax}
!hao!woods
"...once in a while you can get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..."abv@pucc-h (David Stevens) (11/27/84)
I think you've missed the boat here. Most people talk about
living together *long* after a sexual relationship has been established.
I agree that platonic co-habitation could be rewarding, and lead to
a long lasting friendship on which to base other things, but I don't
think this case comes up very often between people and their SOs.
You seem to believe that the purpose of co-habitation is to make
sex more convenient. My experience has been that the reason for living
together is a deeper commitment to the relationship emotionally, though
not yet a lifetime commitment. It has the effect of *reducing* the importance
of sex, by increasing everyday non-sexual contact, and allowing the people
to see more aspects of each other's lives other than the dating/love/sex
portions which dominate early in a relationship. I cannot believe that anyone
would go to the trouble of adjusting their home life to a MOTOS simply for
"ease of access" in a physical relationship. Finding the time and place
for sex is not such a problem, if sex is all you are looking for.
The important thing about living together is *NOT* sexual contact,
but the commitment to share more of your life with your SO. This does not
require sex, but it certainly does not mean you should stop an existing
sexual relationship. Sex and living together are independent issues, and
are far too often associated with each other without regard to the
underlying feelings which generate them.
--
----------
David L Stevens
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:abv
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily my own, or anyone else's.hania@rabbit.UUCP (Hania Gajewska) (11/28/84)
If you have brought up your parents properly, you
should have no trouble with sleeping arrangements,
either in your home or in your parents. Parents
should be taught early on that, although their
children love them very much, they (the parents)
cannot control their children's lives for ever,
and need to learn to respect values which may be
different from their own. I think that to give in to
your parents on the issue of whether you sleep with
your SO at home (assuming you live with your SO),
is to insult your SO ("I love you very much, but
mommy knows best"). The way I would handle it is to
tell your parents that you assume you will be able to
share a room at their house, but if they feel
uncomfortable having you "live in sin" under their
roof, you will be glad to stay at a local motel
during your visit.bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) (11/28/84)
My wife and I cohabited for about three years before getting married. My
parents didn't care, so there wasn't any problem there. October's parents
being much more conservative did care, so we adopted a sort of passive
deception with them.
She sent them her new address and phone number. We kept two phones, so
as to avoid embarassing phone answering problems (we still do, only one
is now dedicated to the downstairs machine room.) Nobody asked (as
parent's won't) and we didn't volunteer any information.
When came the time for the great revelation, October had gotten used to
the idea of telling her parents and her parents had accomodated themselves
to hearing it (we know now,) so the projected confrontation was more of
a family gathering. Never underestimate your parents -- they've been here
longer than you.
As for the sleeping arrangements, we've always observed a single rule.
When your in somebody else's house, you obey their house rules as you
would expect guests to do in your house. If they say no sleep in the
same room, it's not your place to take a stand on your relationship.
Later, on your own turf, maybe.
This doesn't always work out, however. Before we were married we took
a trip to Florida to check out my old haunts in Tampa and to visit
my Aunt and Uncle (who tend to the bizarre) in Vero Beach. On the day
of our arrival, my Aunt and Uncle decided to be liberal and let us
sleep in the same room. We asked if they were sure and then collapsed.
The next morning, they decided that they couldn't deal with it and
then made such a big issue of it that we sort of sidled out the door
in distinct discomfort. We still refer to that as "the time Byron's
Uncle threw us out of the house."
A couple of years ago *they* came to visit *us.* While we're too nice
to do it, we really wanted to enforce *our* house rule -- you visit us,
you sleep in the same bed! (They normally sleep separately.) Well,
the thought was nice, anyway.
--
Byron C. Howes
...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bchaeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (11/28/84)
From Laurie Sefton (pucc-k:afo): > Now, by this time you and your SO have decided that you aren't quite > ready for happy wedlock-hood, but that won't deter you from sharing > the living quarters at this time..... Admittedly I haven't personal experience to back this up, but have you considered *residing* together, as distinct from the usual sense of "living together"? It occurs to me that if you and your SO could successfully deal with the stresses of sharing a residence, for an extended period, *without* using sex to paper over disagreements, then your friendship would be so solid that you would greatly increase your chances of a successful marriage, should you decide to exercise that option. Another way to look at it is: one thing at a time. Work out the balances of plain vanilla daily life first; when they are running reasonably swimmingly, *then* start working on the adjustments of sex. Don't try to do everything at once. The obvious difficulties in this arise from this not being the best of all possible worlds: a) the temptation to go ahead with sex would be there, and would probably be very strong; b) even if you didn't give in to that temptation, you'd have a tough time convincing outsiders of your celibacy (particularly parents, I suppose). But the idea still seems to me to have some wisdom in it. Perhaps you could try it, and let the net know how it works out? -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Clearing /tmp
andyb@dartvax.UUCP (Andy Behrens) (11/28/84)
> Now, by this time you and your SO have decided that you aren't quite > ready for happy wedlock-hood, but that won't deter you from sharing > the living quarters at this time..... > [But your] parentals are into the notion that only 'bad girls (yes! > double standard!)' 'live in sin'. I'd tell them: "You've brought me up well. You know that I wouldn't do something that was wrong. I know that when you were my age couples didn't live together before they were married, but I've thought about it and I fell that it is the right decision for me." When you visit them for Thanksgiving, resign yourself to sleeping separately, or rent a motel room if you can't survive apart for even a single night. Andy Behrens andyb@dartmouth.csnet {astrovax,decvax,cornell,ihnp4,linus}!dartvax!andyb
afo@pucc-k (Flidais) (11/28/84)
From Jeff Sargent (pucc-h:aeq) >>Admittedly I haven't personal experience to back this up, but have you >>considered *residing* together, as distinct from the usual sense of >>"living together"? It occurs to me that if you and your SO could >>successfully deal with the stresses of sharing a residence, for an >>extended period, *without* using sex to paper over disagreements, then >>your friendship would be so solid that you would greatly increase your >>chances of a successful marriage, should you decide to exercise that option. No, Jeff, you don't have the experience. And that, is what I look for when I elicit advice from those on the net, or anywhere else. I don't presume to tell people how to build and operate a nuclear power plant, because I don't have any conception of it... >>Another way to look at it is: one thing at a time. Work out the balances >>of plain vanilla daily life first; when they are running reasonably >>swimmingly, *then* start working on the adjustments of sex. Don't try >>to do everything at once. Jeff, you seem to have this idea that sex throws sand in the works. When sex is not a problem (and in this case, it definitely isn't :-) why consider it a detriment to a relationship. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.... >>The obvious difficulties in this arise from this not being the best of all >>possible worlds: a) the temptation to go ahead with sex would be there, and >>would probably be very strong; b) even if you didn't give in to that >>temptation, you'd have a tough time convincing outsiders of your celibacy >>(particularly parents, I suppose). But the idea still seems to me to have >>some wisdom in it. Perhaps you could try it, and let the net know how it >>works out? Uh, let's answer b) first. It is none of anyone's business *what* goes on in the privacy of my abode.... now.... (enter flaming, screaming and jumping up and down mode) My word, man, do you think we all go around, gritting our teeth, crossing our legs, and hoping that we won't ravish the next person of the appropriate sex? This puritan privation garbage is just that- garbage. I don't even intend to get my jollies out of putting on a hair shirt and congratulating myself on what a pure and holy person I am. Or what unpure and unholy people everyone else are. Now, that's *neurotic*. And what would expect to be the results of this grand social experiment? That everyone would stop having sex with their SO? When you stop thinking of sex as something to be avoided, and something that is inherently evil, then sex isn't the massive problem you have made it to be... Really Jeff, for someone who holds no respect for the social sciences, you try awfully hard to be a sociologist/psychologist. Tr to get at least *some* background in what makes people tick (or at least a course in experimental desgin) before you start experiments. -- Laurie Sefton {harpo,ihnp4,allegra,decvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!afo ~As he lay out the tarot, the devil and death, two old and very dear friends of mine, appeared.~
bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) (11/29/84)
In article <pucc-h.1514> aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) writes: >Admittedly I haven't personal experience to back this up, but have you >considered *residing* together, as distinct from the usual sense of >"living together"? It occurs to me that if you and your SO could >successfully deal with the stresses of sharing a residence, for an >extended period, *without* using sex to paper over disagreements, then >your friendship would be so solid that you would greatly increase your >chances of a successful marriage, should you decide to exercise that option. Of course in the ideal world we are all friends before we become intimate. In practice, as someone (perhaps on the net) has said "First you find out if the hardware is compatible, *then* you worry about the software..." Realistically, couples who cohabit for more than purely economic reasons are more than likely to have slept together, probably for some time. Perhaps someone with more self-discipline than I could deal with the loss of sexual contact while negotiating "the stresses of living together." In my case, it would have induced enough additional stress to have guaranteed a break-up. From my own experience, sex is hardly used to "paper over" disagreements. The influence is usually in the other direction. One tries to resolve (in some sense) disagreements before going into the bedroom so that they don't follow you in. Sex as a tool of placation is a definite bummer for everyone involved. Too, the stresses of living together don't ever go away (sorry to pop your balloon.) No matter how long-term the relationship, there are always the proverbial hairs in the sink or toothpaste squeezed from the wrong end of the tube and a million other things that make you momentarily wish you were living with *anyone* but your partner. You learn to adapt, but most of all you learn to care. The world won't end if you move away from the way you've always done things just a bit to leave some space for someone you love. Finally, living together ain't a whole lot different than being married. It hurts just as much when it dissolves (I speak from experience) even when relatively "amicable." The major difference is that when you've only been cohabiting the lawyers and the courts don't have to get involved. When you go through a divorce, the lawyers and the courts are the least of your problems. Advice? Hardly any. Living together isn't the romantic ideal folks cook it up to be, but then neither is marriage. (Sound of more balloons popping?) You make your relationships the best way you know how, which never seems as good as it could be. Me? I wouldn't trade it for anything -- Byron C. Howes ...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bch
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (11/29/84)
>> = me > = Laurie Sefton >> The obvious difficulties in [living together with one's SO] arise from this >> not being the best of all possible worlds: a) the temptation to go ahead >> with sex would be there, and would probably be very strong; b) even if you >> didn't give in to that temptation, you'd have a tough time convincing >> outsiders of your celibacy (particularly parents, I suppose). > Uh, let's answer b) first. It is none of anyone's business *what* > goes on in the privacy of my abode.... I suppose I should have restricted part b) to parents. I agree that other outsiders ought not to try to control what you do in your home. (Note that I said "control"; I didn't say suggestions were entirely out of order....) > My word, man, do you think we all go around, gritting our teeth, > crossing our legs, and hoping that we won't ravish the next person > of the appropriate sex? Actually, the general impression I get of this society is that people go around hoping that they *will* [1/2 :-)]. > This puritan privation garbage is just that--garbage. I don't even intend > to get my jollies out of putting on a hair shirt and congratulating myself > on what a pure and holy person I am. Or what unpure and unholy people > everyone else are. Now, that's *neurotic*. I'm not so sure I agree with your first sentence. From my minimal (but nonzero) experience (the net registers shock), I have come to the conclusion that chastity is really a good thing. If your experience doesn't teach that, O.K.; things like this really have to be either discovered or accepted on faith, and despite all my net.religion postings, I'm really a sufficiently obstinate sort that I usually have to learn things by discovery.... This doesn't say chastity is an *easy* thing, and that I sometimes don't get envious of those who allow themselves easier access to sex; but that does not mean that contemning those who are thus active is part of my credo. > When you stop thinking of sex as something to be avoided, and > something that is inherently evil, then sex isn't the massive > problem you have made it to be... Sex, in and of itself, is neither "to be avoided" nor "inherently evil"; after God created man and woman with physical bodies and sexual desire, He saw that His creation was "very good". Sex out of the context of commitment, however, is another question. Clearly you and your SO have some degree of commitment; this gray area is one I cannot address from experience; but I do still question whether sex outside a *lifetime* commitment is a good thing. > Really Jeff, for someone who holds no respect for the social > sciences, you try awfully hard to be a sociologist/psychologist. Moi? Disrespect the social sciences? On what do you base this? As to my being an amateur psychologist, I doubt that many people have studied their most intimately available psychological subject (themselves) nearly so much as I have studied myself (a mildly abnormal subject and not fond of that, so I've been getting repairs made). I haven't a lot of training, but I have a fair amount of experience. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Clearing /tmp
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (11/29/84)
> = David Stevens (pucc-h!abv) > You seem to believe that the purpose of co-habitation is to make sex more > convenient.... The important thing about living together is *NOT* sexual > contact, but the commitment to share more of your life with your SO.... I suspect that a lot of parents have the belief that you mentioned in the first sentence I quoted; it does sound as though Laurie's do. I myself entirely agree with your second sentence above, that the commitment is the keystone [hence the parents' summoning of the Keystone Kops :-)], not the sex. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Clearing /tmp
hxe@rayssd.UUCP (11/29/84)
What *I* want to know is this: Why is it that, whenever you meet
"The Parents" for the first time, they always serve spaghetti or
chicken or any food designed to slide delicately off your chin
and onto your lap? I suppose it's a test.
Of course, I'm a vegetarian, so I almost always encounter open
hostility as soon as food is mentioned in the meat-and-potatoes
bastion of most of the homes I've visited. I usually try to
arrange non-mealtime meetings. I usually fail.
"What do you mean, what do I eat?"
--
--Heather Emanuel {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5} rayssd!hxe
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I don't think my company *has* an opinion, so the ones in this
article are obviously my own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Such a foolish notion, that war is called devotion,
when the greatest warriors are the ones who stand for peace."chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Cheshire Chuqui) (11/29/84)
In article <1514@pucc-h> aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) writes: >From Laurie Sefton (pucc-k:afo): > >Admittedly I haven't personal experience to back this up, but have you If you didn't admit this up front, your further comments would make this fact painfully clear... *urg* >It occurs to me that if you and your SO could >successfully deal with the stresses of sharing a residence, for an >extended period, *without* using sex to paper over disagreements, then >your friendship would be so solid that you would greatly increase your We HAVE been doing that, wonderfully enforced by distance and the fact thgat sex is exceptionally unsatisfying when carried out over a pair of computer terminals or a telephone. We don't like that option now, why would we like that option when we are actually in the same room? During my recent visit to my SO we didn't bother with that celibacy claptrap and got along rather splendidly, so why ruin a good thing? If I wanted celibacy in my relationship I'd marry a priest or something... >chances of a successful marriage, should you decide to exercise that option. I just got OUT of that option (final 11/18, yippee, sigh). I'm in no hurry to tie myself down again, if ever, until I'm sure I'm going to want to stay tied down until I die (or beyond). >Another way to look at it is: one thing at a time. Work out the balances >of plain vanilla daily life first; when they are running reasonably >swimmingly, *then* start working on the adjustments of sex. Don't try >to do everything at once. Jeff, sex simply isn't that BIG of a problem. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that most people wouldn't consider it a problem at all (It's a feature, not a bug!). You ought to try it sometime. Until you do, please don't give illconceived advice based upon your own naive fears. People have been fooling around for hundreds of years, at least, and the world hasn't gone off it's axis yet. >The obvious difficulties in this arise from this not being the best of all >possible worlds: a) the temptation to go ahead with sex would be there, and >would probably be very strong; The word 'understatement' comes to mind. As a matter of fact, we are both so weak in our vows that we've given into the temptation. Repeatedly. I don't see any problem with that, as long as we don't disturb the neighbors or do terrible things to their dog with a fork or something. b) even if you didn't give in to that >temptation, you'd have a tough time convincing outsiders of your celibacy >(particularly parents, I suppose). No, I could convince people of our celibacy, it's our sanity they would wonder about... But the idea still seems to me to have >some wisdom in it. Perhaps you could try it, and let the net know how it >works out? you've been working on the celibacy thing a lot longer than we have, and have been reporting at great length about it. Tell you what-- we'll try it our way, and if it works out maybe you might be interested in joining the human race with us sometime, too... chuq (*large guffaw*) -- From the center of a Plaid pentagram: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ~But you know, monsieur, that as long as she wears the claw of the dragon upon her breast you can do nothing-- her soul belongs to me!~
marie@harvard.ARPA (Marie Desjardins) (11/30/84)
Re: telling your parents you will be living with your SO. I am currently living with my fiance (wedding planned for June, right after I graduate from college). We were engaged last summer, and I told my parents that we were planning on getting married in a few years. Their immediate reaction was "I hope you're planning to wait for a long time!". As far as telling them that we were living together, it happened very gradually: last summer (1983) I went to Europe for the first few months of the summer, and stayed with John at the end of the summer (I was working in Boston). My mother was a little concerned about this, but since I was moving back into university housing and it would only be for a few weeks... Anyway, when she started having to sometimes call me at John's late at night or early in the morning I think she got the hint that we were spending our nights together. This year I decided to move into to John's apartment because (a) we wanted to try it out (although we were really already quite confident, and rightly so, of our ability to put up with each other constantly :-) and (b) I was very unhappy living on-campus for a number of reasons (which my parents were aware of). So it was quite easy for me to tell my parents. John's parents are another matter (he is Korean, and his parents are fairly traditional. He hasn't even managed to really tell them that we're planning to get married!). In October, I went home (to Maryland, where I live with my mother -- my parents are divorced) to go to a friend's wedding. John was with me. My mother was at my sister's parents weekend (at Yale -- boo, hiss :-) so we had the house to ourselves. We have slept together at home before, but this time my mother left a note saying 'you can use my room if you want' (!!). When we went home for Thanksgiving, as my mother was going up to bed (we were still watching TV), she said "Do you guys want to use my bed?" I mean, I knew my mother was fairly modern, liberal, hip, etc. but this was ridiculous! John and I almost died... Marie desJardins marie@harvard
gino@voder.UUCP (Gino Bloch) (11/30/84)
[the line-eating bug is my SO] > It occurs to me that if you and your SO could > successfully deal with the stresses of sharing a residence, for an > extended period, *without* using sex to paper over disagreements, then > your friendship would be so solid that you would greatly increase your > chances of a successful marriage, should you decide to exercise that option. > Another way to look at it is: one thing at a time. Work out the balances > of plain vanilla daily life first; when they are running reasonably > swimmingly, *then* start working on the adjustments of sex. Don't try > to do everything at once. > -- Jeff Sargent > {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq I propose working out the balances of sex first; when they are running reasonably well, *then* start working on the adjustments of living together. -- Gene E. Bloch (...!nsc!voder!gino)
judy@ut-ngp.UUCP (Judy Ashworth) (11/30/84)
The thought of "bringing your parents up right" is an interesting notion, but hardly realistic. The fact of the matter is THEY BROUGHT YOU UP, and so deserve a measure of respect from you. If you ever hope to have YOUR views respected, you must show your parents that even though you are an adult, with your own and perhaps different values, you still respect their values. How can you possibly justify more concern over insulting your SO than you show towards insulting your parents? After all your SO could leave you tomorrow, but parents (if they are good ones) will always be there for you. If your SO is at all interested in earning the acceptance of your parents he/she will understand that when you stay at your parent's home you abide by their rules. If you are determined to live by your rules alone, be prepared to pay for a hotel room. The same rules apply when your parents visit you. If you live with your SO make sure your parents understand that you have no intentions of rearranging your life to suit them. If they cannot accept this, they too, have the option of staying elsewhere. Judy
eugene@ames.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (11/30/84)
I wish you had this discussion two weeks ago. [Instead of now.] --eugene miya
dw@rocksvax.UUCP (Don Wegeng) (12/01/84)
In article <3303@rabbit.UUCP> hania@rabbit.UUCP (Hania Gajewska) writes: >...I think that to give in to >your parents on the issue of whether you sleep with >your SO at home (assuming you live with your SO), >is to insult your SO ("I love you very much, but >mommy knows best"). It's not a question of insulting your SO. I respect the beliefs of others, and when I am in someone elses home I try to behave in a manor which is acceptable to them (assuming that it is not offensive to me, etc.). Consider a simplier example. I do not smoke, and do not want people to smoke in my car. This is not due to possible health hazzards, but rather that I simply do not want my car to smell like smoke. My friends who smoke respect my wishes and do not smoke in my car. Is it an insult to my friends to make this request? If a rider in my car expected other people in the car to obey my *rule* would it be an insult ("I love you very much, but Donny knows best")? I don't think so. I do not think that it is right for me to go into another person's home and insist that it is my *right* (or whatever) to sleep with whomever I want while there. It is a privilege for me to be in that person's home, not a right, and therefore I must respect that privilege and obey the rules that go along with being granted that privilege. I personally have no objection to unmarried people sleeping together. However I do not pretend that I can force everyone to agree with me, nor do I want to. Trying to force your beliefs on others only leads to problems. -- /Don "Everyone has to believe in something; I believe I'll have another beer" arpa: Wegeng.Henr@Xerox.ARPA uucp: {allegra,princeton,decvax!rochester,amd,sunybcs}!rocksvax!dw || ihnp4!tropix!ritcv!rocksvax!dw
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (12/03/84)
> How can you possibly justify more concern over insulting your SO than > you show towards insulting your parents? After all your SO could leave > you tomorrow, but parents (if they are good ones) will always be there > for you. > > Judy The key word here is "if they are good ones". There are times when parents are wrong and your so deserves more respect than them even if he might leave you any time. One of the things my parents used to do (same parents I mentioned a while back who are so happy to wake people up) was to phone me at my so's place when we were sleeping ~8 in the morning even though they knew very well we'd be sleeping and they would be waking up not only me, but him and his roommate as well. In most instances what they had to say could have waited a few more hours very easily. Well, I asked my parents a few times not to do this as people in the household didn't like it, but they kept on doing it, and even complained a few times because my so wasn't being very talkative when they woke him up. I told them that that was because he was asleep and didn't like being woken up. To this they just laughed saying something derogatory about today's youth, and how it needs to be shaped up. Well, with all due respect to my parents, and even though this particular so is no longer my so, I still believe that my parents were being rude, and that he had every right in the world not to want to be woken up by my parents in his own apartment. Sophie Quigley ...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigley
dbb@fluke.UUCP (Dave Bartley) (12/03/84)
Wait a couple of days to reply to something and you're too late
already. However, having just completed part 2 of Meet The Parents,
I intend to duplicate some of the advice from several of the
postings, hopefully in a different order.
My fiancee and I have been cohabiting since mid-June (and virtually
cohabiting for a few months before). The decision to do so was
somewhat precipitate, but that's another story.
Neither of our parental sets "approves" of living together out of
wedlock nor would they start a full-scale nuclear confrontation over
the matter. Having older siblings who have done the same prior to
marriage, I had no problem with my parents. She was treated as a
member of the family from the moment they met (OK, so I'm lucky to
have parents like these...). With hers it was a more delicate
matter, but they were basically neutral about it: "Well, it's your
life." Well, she'd been through this sort of announcement some
years previous, so it was easier this time.
We just spent Thanksgiving with her parents. Having become engaged
in September, and having announced said fact to her parents, improved
their attitude toward our relationship, if not our present living
arrangements. We decided well before going down there to make it
clear to them that we didn't mind sleeping separately. After all,
it's their home -- I'd do the same for my parents. We sleep
together the rest of the time -- not that it was easy to adjust to
sleeping alone (and not even in a waterbed! :-)). All went
smoothly.
I prefer keeping things open with the parents, within the limits of
reason -- but it depends on your parents' disposition. However, I
don't see any point in trying to get some moral point across to them
or to assert one's adulthood by insisting on sleeping together under
their roof, any more than I would allow them to dictate what I do
under my own. That would be more difficult to insist upon if I were
still financially dependent on my parents.
Well, there it is.
--
Dave Bartley UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4}!uw-beaver!
John Fluke Mfg Co. {sun,allegra}! fluke!dbb
Everett, WA USA {ucbvax,hplabs}!lbl-csam!franka@hercules.UUCP (Frank Adrian) (12/07/84)
I was wondering about this discussion about meeting the parents.
How old are these people who are having this horribly difficult time? 18?
20? Are there still people out there who are scared of big, bad mom and dad?
Maybe this whole discussion seems rather stupid to me because I'm 28 and
have been on my own for 6 years and don't have parents who live in the middle
ages. Christ, I know getting along with mommy and daddy is important, but if
they can't take reality, why the hell would you want to see them anyway? I
could understand if it was organic (an early case of Alzhiemer's) and you
just wanted to cheer them up, but we're supposedly talking about rational
human beings here. Sheesh!
"Remember, wherever you happen to be --
you're already there"
Frank Adrian
___
/- -\
\ - /
uucp: {decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!franka
CSnet: franka@tek
ARPAnet: franka.tek@rand-relaymarie@harvard.ARPA (Marie Desjardins) (12/11/84)
> How old are these people who are having this horribly difficult time? 18? > 20? Are there still people out there who are scared of big, bad mom and dad? > Maybe this whole discussion seems rather stupid to me because I'm 28 and > have been on my own for 6 years and don't have parents who live in the middle > ages. Maybe this whole discussion seems rather stupid to you because it doesn't occur to you that everyone has different problems. I have a great deal of respect and love for my parents. If they didn't approve of my relationship (fortunately they do), I would feel badly about that, and would hope that if I explained my problem to other people (including net.people) that they would be sympathetic, and hopefully offer constructive suggestions. Not criticism. Yes, I'm 20. Just turned it and proud of it.(*) I don't think I'm in any way inferior for it. (Maybe a little lacking in experience, but it seems that I make up for that in the openness (innocence??) of my outlook on life and other people.) Marie desJardins marie@harvard (*) Send all birthday presents to the above address.
hxe@rayssd.UUCP (12/11/84)
> I was wondering about this discussion about meeting the parents. >How old are these people who are having this horribly difficult time? 18? >20? Are there still people out there who are scared of big, bad mom and dad? >Maybe this whole discussion seems rather stupid to me because I'm 28 and >have been on my own for 6 years For the record, I am 28 and have been living away from home since I was 16 and went off to college, and, no, I am not afraid of my parents. >and don't have parents who live in the middle ages. Many of us don't have "parents who live in the middle ages." We do have parents who may or may not agree with us on any number of topics. >Christ, I know getting along with mommy and daddy is important, but if >they can't take reality, why the hell would you want to see them anyway? I >could understand if it was organic (an early case of Alzhiemer's) and you >just wanted to cheer them up, but we're supposedly talking about rational >human beings here. Sheesh! Yes, getting along with your parents *is* very important. Of course, if they disagree with your every basic value and refuse to think of you as an individual then, sure, stop seeing them. But I think most of us are somewhere in between. It matters to me, at any age, what my parents think of my friends because I value my parents opinion and I want the people who define my life (friends & family) to like each other. No, I wouldn't stop seeing someone just because "mommy and daddy" told me so (nor would they ever think of doing such a thing), but I would look closely at any reasons my parents gave me for not liking a friend of mine. I've been wrong before and so have they (which is why we usually wait until afterwards to give our opinions), but I value their input as I would value a comment from any close friend. I don't think I'm alone in this. As far as I can see from most of the comments on the net, this discussion is about respecting other people's wishes when on their turf. Of course I would do that for any friend, why not my parents? And, yes, I'm still nervous when I introduce a new SO to my parents - as nervous as I am when introducing him to my best friend. SOs come and go; best friends and parents are for life. It's valid to be concerned that the people in one part of your life like the people in another part of your life because, like it or not, we are defined by the company we keep. Also, on purely practical terms, it's a lot easier on everyone if people who are going to see each other on a regular basis don't take an active dislike for each other. -- --Heather Emanuel {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5} rayssd!hxe -------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think my company *has* an opinion, so the ones in this article are obviously my own. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Such a foolish notion, that war is called devotion, when the greatest warriors are the ones who stand for peace."