[net.politics] Response to Werner

trc (04/22/83)

CS. Werner: (Sorry I could not send this direct - I couldnt figure
		out how to send directly.)

I wont attempt to address all of your arguments, but rather the more
basic ones.  As I see it, your main points were:

	1) The US is not good enough to act as world policeman.

	2) Building up strength would lead to nuclear war more certainly
		than a freeze or unilateral disarmament.

	3) My argument of using strength judiciously would not work today.

	4) We should "play fair" with the Soviets.

	5) Our country is already to weakened internally by military
	buildup to extend itself further.

	6) The solution to a Russian invasion after we uni-laterally
		disarm is passive resistance.

	7) Russia might fall apart if there were no US to hype against.
		The US might fall apart if there were no USSR to
		hype against.

1)  The US is not all goodness and light.  But to a large extent, our
	corruption has occurred since WWII, and as a result of trying
	to fight dirty tactics used by Russia.  Before that, when the
	US did something, it generally did it in a rather open manner.
	We might have eventually turned out to be poor policemen, 
	corrupted by power.  But even then, we would still never have
	been faced with the threat of nuclear war - a battle against
	a single corrupt world power would be a revolt, not a war.
	Nuclear weapons would be of little use in such a revolt.

2)  A freeze keeps us in the current state - approximate parity.  Unless
	we move away from that state, all the current tensions would
	remain.  Russia is currently using these tensions to hold the
	West in abeyance while it uses conventional forces to slowly
	expand its power.  A unilateral disarmament would not lead to
	nuclear war, but if we did it, the results would be equally
	bad - as I said, we would see all that we love murdered and
	destroyed.  See point 6.

3)  I dont think I ever said that we should judiciously use our nuclear
	weapons as a threat or directly, today.  The time for telling
	the criminal "dont pick up that gun" or "put down your gun"
	is past.  Now the gun is pointed at us, and would be fired if
	we ever tried to use ours.  Our other choice is to put on
	a bullet proof vest as fast as possible.  The criminal will
	probably do this too, but at least we will know that we cant
	be hurt as badly.  Perhaps, once the shield is in place,
	a freeze or even unilateral disarmament would be possible,
	since the weapons would be of little use anyway.

4) What is fair?  To let the Russians gain half the world while leaving
	the other half alone?  Shouldnt we demand that Russia play fair
	too?  I think that the Soviets have amply demonstrated that
	there are no rules they will play by, only constraints to be
	observed so long as it serves their purpose.  And I think
	we HAVE played fair with Russia, for that matter.  More than
	fair. 

5) Our country is NOT being economically weakened by its military 
	expenditures.  The portion of our GNP spent on the military
	had fallen drastically, before Reagan's election.  What is
	sapping our economy are the social programs that reward
	the unproductive while punishing the productive with high
	taxes.  Far more is spent on these programs than on the
	military.  And really, can you say that conditions in our
	country have improved since these were instated, beyond how 
	they would have improved if they had not been done?  I do
	not believe this.  Cut out those programs, and restore the
	military budget to a reasonable proportion of our GNP, and
	we will be plenty strong.  (Actually, consider how wonderful
	this country would be, if only we had never had to maintain
	more force than would be neccessary to keep other countries
	from starting nuclear development. Ah well, no point longing
	for something that never happened.)

6) This argument sounds like something Russia would love us to believe.
	Passive resistance in our own country would make no difference
	to them, so long as they could take the rest of the world. And
	once the rest of the world is securely theirs, they could simply
	take a policy of "Crush the spirit of the average resistor and
	kill the more vehement resistors".  Passive resistance, such
	as worked in India, worked only because the British could be
	shamed.  Unfortunately, the Russians are pragmatists - if it
	works, it is right, and not shameful.

7) Yes, I agree that the USSR would have a hard time oppressing its own
	people if it could not point to external dangers.  And perhaps
	it would collapse a few decades after attaining world domination.
	The US would not collapse, since its people do not need external
	threats to agree to the need for the government.  However, I do
	believe that a lot of the wrongful actions taken by the government
	today, in the name of security, would fall away, if there were
	no external threat.  All in all, if you could convince the USSR
	to go away, the world would be much better off.  I refuse to
	consider having the US go away just in the hopes that the USSR
	will collapse.  The short term (lifetime) results are certain
	to be far worse than present conditions.  And who can say what
	would rise out of the ashes of the Russian empire?


	Tom Craver
	houti!trc

soreff (04/23/83)

I, for one, would not be surprised to see the US fragment into two or
more nations if the USSR was not providing an external opponent. 
There are some fairly strong regional stress at work in the US
(see "The Nine Nations of North America" [sorry, no author] for
details).  I imagine that the Spanish speaking southern rim of the US
might be as inclined to separatism as Quebec is in Canada, but its
anyone's guess as to whether separation would actually occur.
(excuse me, that should be stresses in line three)
	-Jeffrey Soreff (hplabs!soreff)