[net.politics] circling in on cooperation

trc@houti.UUCP (T.CRAVER) (07/19/83)

Response to Larry Kolodney on cooperating with China:

Larry, I'm sorry if you think I was talking in circles - I merely accepted
the justification *you* gave for cooperating with China in the first place 
(only for the purposes of argument), and showed the logical implications of 
it with regard to cooperating with Russia.  It was precisely, and only my goal 
to show that the justification you gave precluded your conclusion.  

Your new justification seems to be that "cooperation" is the only way to 
prevent a nuclear war, and so survive as a species.  I have already
stated my reasons for rejecting the morality that that is based on -
which seems to be a variant of altruism that one might call "specie-ism".
Since you are making the positive claim - for specie-ism - I suggest that
you provide some evidence that it is a valid moral base.  No one else has.

As to the interdependence of the world being demonstrated in foreign loan 
defaults, those loans are based upon exactly the sort of moral system you 
seem to support.  Would you have us simultaneously believe that those loans 
are an example of good cooperation, and yet that their failure is an example 
of the need for more cooperation?!

In fact, you have provided a much stronger argument against cooperating 
with Russia, China, El Salvador, or any such government - namely that 
they heavily repress fundamental human rights.  Cooperating with them implies 
sanction of those actions.  Nuclear war is a possible evil - but *real* 
evils are taking place now.  If you are convinced that evil is so powerful 
a part of human nature that we have no alternative but to cooperate with it, 
how can you even hope for a chance that we can avoid the evil of a nuclear 
war?  Yes, cooperation would save billions of dollars of US defense spending,
but at the cost of how many perished lives, sanctioned by the US?  And that
is even assuming that they deal honestly with the US.  How likely is it that 
a nation that cannot be trusted with the lives of its own citizens can be 
trusted with the property and lives of US citizens?

Finally, you implied in closing that I was guilty of "putting up straw men
to blame the ills of the world on."  I object to this, because if you read
my note, I do not think you will find that I present *anything* in it upon
which I blame the ills of the world.  I have, in other notes, given evidence
that much of the blame lies with the moral system of altruism.  If you wish
to show that that is a "straw man", you will have to describe what it is that 
you think that the "straw man" was intended to draw attention away from.  Then
you will have to provide some evidence to prove that your idea is pertinent
to reality, and that mine is not.

	Tom Craver
	houti!trc