stevens@teklabs.UUCP (09/13/83)
I heard on the news this morning that because American marines in Lebanon are getting killed, the United States is going to give the marines the option of attacking for defensive purposes and to save American lives. It occurs to me that the Israelis (who have lost thousands of lives -- not just a few) were attacking to make sure their borders were secure. Why is it then that Israel comes under so much pressure and bad press when they are defending themselves, yet the United States, when placed in the same sitution, came upon the same conclusions of self-defense? -- Steve Silberberg
berman@ihuxm.UUCP (09/14/83)
For a large number of Israelis, members of Peace Now and the Israeli Committee Against the War in Lebanon, including soldiers in Soldiers Against Silence and an organization of soldiers who refuse to serve in Lebanon (the group is called "There is a Limit"), the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was not defensive, but rather an act of agression. For an excellent and encouraging analysis of the anti-war movement in Israel, (including its relations with Palestineans), check out the recent issue of MERIP Reports (any good university library) entitled "Israel Divided" Andy Berman
pollack@uicsl.UUCP (09/16/83)
#R:teklabs:-243000:uicsl:16300015:000:382 uicsl!pollack Sep 16 01:14:00 1983 Israel came "under such international pressure and bad press" because Israel "defended" its northern border with Lebanon in the same fashion that Russia "defended" its southern border with Afganistan. And now our media identifies the sides, in an age-old ethnic civil war, with the US and Russia. Of course we have to protect the new government that We and Israel Hath Created.
jobe@ssc-vax.UUCP (John W Jobe) (09/16/83)
Because, my friend, the Israelis have shown an incredible tendency to annex everything they get their hands on, they moved into Lebanon one hell of a lot further than the 25km they said they were going to, and they've already de facto annexed the West Bank. The Israelis are invaders in Lebanon, as much as the Syrians (if not more!). The U.S. Marines are there to try to help Lebanon become the nation that it once was before the PLO, the Syrians, the Civil War and all its assorted religious militias, *AND THE ISRAELIS*!! The marines aren't there to expand their borders, we know that for sure. But we sure as hell don't know that 'bout Israel. the dark avenger Jobe (!ssc-vax!jobe)
velu@umcp-cs.UUCP (09/17/83)
Come of it! What is this about double standards!!! Now where yet has it been shown (or said) that the US MArines in Lebanon, or anyother memeber of the multi-national force can shoot first in self defense. The US Marines MAY NOT shoot back unless they are directly fired upon, and even then only with orders from above. Yes. This must be a hard thing for the Men to do - just sit there and every once in a while get shot at - but I think that they should be commended for the self-restraint which they are whowing. Now - getting to the messy part - Israeli action in the same region. (this could probably be considered a flame...) Israel has every right to defend itself, and its people. There is no denying that. But - Israel itself is setting double standards. When a country is formed out of land on which someone else was living (I think they are called 'squatters laws' in many coutries) the other people have to be compensated for. They cannot be treated as the Palestinians have been in Israel - and the entire region. All the Palestinians really want is a place to call home - just as the Jew's wished in the mid 40's. The Jews got Israel - but the Palestinians never got an atonomous Palestine. (they never got ANY Palastine!) The tactics which the Palestinans are using ARE terrorist tactics - and the should be condemned. BUT - the same tactics which the Palastinians are using now were used by Begin and his group to insure a free Israel. (Who blew up the King David Hotel? ... etc. etc. etc...) Basically - what I am tring to say is that if Israel should continue to exist then Palastine should surely be allowed to exist also. The Israeli are no better than the Palastine - and vice versa - the jew and the palastine were even brothers in blood at one point long ago - the Egyptians and the Romans succeeded in splitting the group and starting rivalries which continue till this day. I think that it is time that both groups reasses the situation and realize that this conflict which has been running now for > 2000 years has no place in OUR society. AND also - the Jew's who were so persecuted during the second world war - they did live through hell - and survvived - they have to be looked down upon for only one thing - they CANNOT EVER persecute. Yes - what the Nazi's and other anti-semites did to them was totally wrong - but on the same front that does not give Israel the right to protect Phalangists (sp?) while they are slaughtering Palestinans - a year ago today - to be exact. They stood backed and watched. Two wrongs will never make a right - after being given so much from the world at large - and also the excellent skill and determination and level of scholarship which many jew's posess - they were reduced to the level of the common scum - the political terrorist - the murderers - just what they were trying to avoid. And yes, I am almost done, Israel is not the regualtor of who does what ANYWHERE - much less the middle east. Israel- who will not let its on reactors be inspected by the International commisions has no right to blow up an Iraqui (sp?) reactor which has been duly inspected. I am not arab, nor jew, nor palastinian. I just hate peoples who get too big for their britches, - Velu Sinha (:-( -- Velu Sinha
stevens@teklabs.UUCP (09/19/83)
ssc-vax!jobe says that the PLO, Syria, and Israel are all invaders in Lebanon with expansionist intentions and that the US Marines are there to keep the peace with no such motives. Well it seems to me that no matter what Israel does, it is in the wrong. They were pressured to pull back, and they did. Gee, I couldn't have predicted fighting would break out the day they withdrew. As for our marines keeping peace, they've done a great job. You never hear about fighting in Lebanon or anything. Even though the intentions of the United States are good, American soldiers are dying. And it's a tragedy when ANYONE dies. Is Israel being expansionist? Maybe, but isn't it a coincidence that as soon as Israel withdrew from parts of Lebanon that Arafat reappears there condemning both Israel and the US "traitors". -- Steve Silberberg
alle@ihuxb.UUCP (09/20/83)
We may not know what the Israelis intentions are, but we sure as hell know that the Syrians are looking to expand their borders. I feel that the clear villains of the Lebanon situation is the Syrians, and the rest of us (including the Israelis) are being made victims due to Syrian intransigence. Allen England at AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxb!alle
stevens@teklabs.UUCP (09/20/83)
You say that Israeli people are "common scum" because they allowed a "massacre" to transpire. What would you have done if you were in that situation? Would you have attacked to prevent the "massacre"? If you did, wouldn't that be outright aggression? I can see the headlines now, "Israel slaughters hundreds of innocent civilians". Which isn't very much different from the headlines that were printed anyway. It was a no win situation. The fact stands that Israel will be chastized whether it chooses to attack or not. You say that the Palestinians were exiled from their land. Have you never heard of trans-Jordan? What actually happened is that trans-Jordan was divided up amongst Israelis and Palestinians. More than 3/4 of the land (including Jerusalem) was given to the Palestinians. Why does no one complain when King Hussein expels the PLO from Jordan? Also, you interchange the terms PLO and Palestinians as well as Jews and Israelis without a second thought. They are NOT the same. -- Steve Silberberg
rao@utcsstat.UUCP (rao) (09/21/83)
Excuse me , Velu, but i have to correct your statement that "the palestinians
got no part of palestine".
Not only is this statement 100% wrong ,before you make accusations
you better check you're history and geography.
1) During British mandate, Palestine = Israel+Jordan
2) Jordan = 79 % (i think) of Palestine
3) Balfour Declaration stated "Jews will recieve the ENTIRE Palestine
(including Jordan).
4) So not only did the so-called palestinians NOT get ripped off
THE JEWS DID!!!!!
5) ARe the syrians allowed to massacre 1000's of people all the time
, well , they do!velu@umcp-cs.UUCP (09/21/83)
Isn't the statement 'Syria is definitely looking to expand...' a little
on the strong side?
It looks to me like this is turning into an out and out war...
What say you to a NEW news group - net.politics.middle-east ?
(I don't want to bore the people who are still occupied with South America
with this grudge war on the Middle East...)
If you agree with the idea to start a sub-group send ME mail saying so,
does someone out there in net.politics land want to tell me HOW we can
start another group?
- Velu
--
Velu Sinha
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!velu
CSNet: velu@umcp-cs ARPA: velu.umcp-cs@UDel-Relaymyers@uwvax.ARPA (Jeff Myers) (09/23/83)
I'd like to vote 'no' on the question of net.politics.middle.east (or whatever). The topic is of general political interest.