stevens@teklabs.UUCP (Steven J Silberberg) (10/12/83)
>>>I too believe that it is more important to have some way of >>>recognizing MLK than to recognize Columbus Day... >>>Especially in schools - I think if nothing else then all schools should >>>be closed on the birthday of MLK. MLK is a much more important figure >>>in the history of the US (if not the world...) than many of these >>>Jewish holidays on which schools are closed. >>>Velu Sinha >>>UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!velu >>>CSNet: velu@umcp-cs ARPA: velu.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay I agree, Martin Luther King day is infinitely more important than Columbus day. However, which Jewish holidays are you referring to in which schools are closed? Xmas? Perhaps Good Friday. Have you ever known of any school (besides Brandeis maybe) which had Yom Kippur as a day off? Of course not, no one recognizes Jewish holidays. In my 22 years, I have found just the opposite. In eighth grade, I was on the soccer team. We had a practice (practice, NOT game!) on Yom Kippur. The next day I was notified that I had been cut from the team. I was told that "If you want to play, you've got to come to practices". Is this an instance of one of the "many Jewish holidays on which school was closed." In personal correspondence, you told me you were not anti-semitic. I guess I believe you. I'll bet some of your best friends are Jewish, right? And I bet you feel no hostility towards Jews even though they are all rich. Tell you what. If we ever meet, let me show you my horns; they're even bigger than my big nose. -- Steve Silberberg
dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) (10/14/83)
Steve, you're not entirely correct. Some schools, I'm sure, do
close on Jewish holidays. These are schools with large Jewish
populations. York University in Toronto, for example, closes on
the first day of Rosh Hashanah and on Yom Kippur.
If a large percentage of the school is going to be absent anyway,
it only makes sense to close the school.
Now, just what is wrong with these holidays, Velu? What do you think
we do on them? I'll tell you one thing: students who are away from
school on Jewish holidays are found in the synagogue. (If they're
not observant enough to be going to the synagogue, they probably
shouldn't miss school.) They are fulfilling specific religious
obligations of prayer and ritual. They are also not permitted to
write, travel by vehicle, or carry things outside, all of which
would make going to school rather awkward.
Now, what do the majority of Christian students do all day on
the "Christian" holidays with which our society blesses us, like
Xmas, Easter, Thanksgiving? How many of them are tied up all day
in church, to the extent that attending school would be impossible?
I too resent Velu's implication that Jewish students should not
be entitled to observe their religion freely.
Dave Sherman
Toronto
--
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!lsuc!davevelu@umcp-cs.UUCP (10/23/83)
Dave, I do not wish to be misunderstood. I am not complaining
about why Jewish (or any other religion) students are fulfilling their
religious obligations. What I am complaining about is that there are
certain days on which I would rather not have to take tests - or go to
school - (Hindu days of worship/prayer...). But none of my teachers
would buy that. On the days when I have a religious activity I am
expected to be in school like everyone else. That is all I am
complaining about.
I do, however, realize that in schools with a large Jewish community it
would be hard (dumb, actually) to keep schools open, it makes good
sense - both politically and economically - to close schools on those
days. On the point of Christian holidays ... Thanksgiving is NOT a
christian holiday ... and XMAS usually occurs as part of the WINTER
RECESS, and Easter/Good Friday usually occur as part of the SPRING
Recess. (Ie they would be holidays, anyway ... (maybe?))
The reason why this talk started is that I complained about there not
being a holiday for MLK. I still do believe (and so the actions of the
US Senate and House show...) that there should be a holiday for him.
Just as Jews should have their days, and Christians theirs, Blacks
(though not a relegion - but a STRONG social minority) should have
their day, also...)
Any body have any solutions to the "My religion has a holiday today, I
don't HAVE to take your crummy test..." problem?
Sorry, again, for offending anyone.
(ie Please accept my apologies...)
- Velu
--
Velu Sinha
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!velu
CSNet: velu@umcp-cs ARPA: velu.umcp-cs@UDel-Relayrlr@pyuxn.UUCP (10/24/83)
> Any body have any solutions to the "My religion has a holiday today, I > don't HAVE to take your crummy test..." problem? > Sorry, again, for offending anyone. > (ie Please accept my apologies...) > - Velu I believe that the law says that a school cannot force a student to take a test (or any other similar activity) if it occurs on a day that conflicts with a religious holiday. That is why special arrangements can be made to take SAT and other ETS tests on days other than Saturdays. Alternative arrangements must be made. If the teacher or college will not do this, I think this is grounds for a lawsuit. Rich
laura@utcsstat.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (10/25/83)
here is a solution to the "my religion has a holiday" problem. Change the idea of tests. (well, I never said that it was going to be easy!). If everyone wrote their tests on the day of their choice then you would not have a problem. And any religious group that has decided that their High Holy day was a Tuesday would not have any problem either -- they could work Saturday or Sunday or work longer hours during the week. Clearly this is only possible when the notion of students all over taking "independant studies" is accepted, which may be never. Personally, I like the idea. No high school student need ever take a test on a day that one feels ill. And if there is some peoblem in your family (say a parent dies, for an extreme example) one could wait and think about other things than the math exam you have tomorrow. The great objection that most people have to this scheme is that the people who have the test earlier are able to teach the people who have the test later so that the later-takers are at a disadvantage with respect to the earlier-takers. To me this reflects an attitude that the schools are there to MEASURE PERFORMANCE as opposed to IMPART KNOWLEDGE that I find very upsetting. If the purpose of an education is to actually teach people then I would expect that it would be a very good thing if the earlier-takers were able to teach the later- takers. the later-takers would be taught, and the earlier-takers would have learned something about teaching people. not to mention that if you ever have to teach something you often end up learning the subject better than you had before, which benefits everyone. And it gives students the idea that teaching and helping people is something that they themselves can do, rather than the responsibility of some government or government agency. It sounds very good to me. How come people look at me blankly whenever I mention it? laura creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura
velu@umcp-cs.UUCP (10/27/83)
Are you sure about that?
I remember reading that if you came in with a letter from your
minister/rabbi type they would let you take it Sun insead of
Sat...
Also - I have no minister or Rabbi ... Us Hindu's in this
country take care of these things on our own, or in small groups of
4 or five families....
Who writes the letter?
--
Velu Sinha
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!velu
CSNet: velu@umcp-cs ARPA: velu.umcp-cs@UDel-Relayvelu@umcp-cs.UUCP (10/27/83)
Unfortunately in this country schols are not set up for
the individual, but for the masses.
The idea which you suggested is great - and has already been
implemented in some school systems...
(Socorro, NM of all places - in a small way... (home of net.nm{imt,tech}))
and works reasonably well.
Unfortuantely - this type of system needs MUCH better teachers. The
teachers have to be:
1. Smarter than the students
2. Faster than the students
3. Keep ahead of ALL the students
(3) is the big problem. With an average teacher/student ration hanging
at around one teacher for 29 or 30 students, and many of these teachers
being quite mediocre, you get a situation where it would be impossible
for these basically untrained ladies and gentlemen to keep track of all
30 pupils - and devote enough time to them to make it work...
The solution: More BETTER trained teachers..
How: Pay them REAL SALARIES. The brick -layers make more than the
teachers... The brick layers have a VERY important function in society
- if it were not for them the teachers would have had no place to go to
school - and no place to teach (I know they can make wooden buildings
_... I am just trying to make a point!). BUT - the brick-layers are not
assisting to SHAPE and MOLD the next generation - while the teachers
are. In other words -> Pay teachers competitive salaries, treat them
like they are important - and WE ALL will have a better future in store
for us...
Whew!
- Velu
(Have YOU hugged a teacher today?)
--
Velu Sinha
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!velu
CSNet: velu@umcp-cs ARPA: velu.umcp-cs@UDel-Relay