wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (04/13/84)
[] Ok, some of you people have been making some rather interesting accusations, now let's see some justification for those accusations. First, Mr. Dyer, how about giving us a documented sample of Regean's lies. No generalizations spouted off second hand from some disgruntled prof at your school, just hard evidence. Second, Mr. LaLiberte, would you please enlighten the network with the your version of Federal Crimes committed by Nixon. I have asked this before, but no one seems to be able to document what they were. We would all be interested I am sure, since I have never seen such a list of indictable crimes before. Please, no generalizations or speculation. Just the raw facts as to what Federal Statuates were involved. Finally, Mr. Sevener, who I am afraid has a very bad case of myopia. Please, Mr. Sevener, could you enlighten us more with you wisdom instead of the generalizations you have been giving us. Instead of "Regean did this and Regean did that", please give us some facts. But, before you do, please be kind enough to separate what falls in Regean's term from what fell under Carter's term. Mixing the two in your generalizations tends to confuse the less enlightened. You seem to have the tendency for lumping everything that has happened within the last 12 years under Regean. It is really not fair to the net readers to leave it to them to sort out which treaty violations fall under which president, don't you think? A little more verse and chapter would keep us mighty unwashed from falling prey to inaccuracies in your articles. Thank you for your cooperation, and I am sure you have not paid one whit of attention to what I am saying. So, go right on with your paranoid diatribes. I have the feeling that if God were a Republican, you gentlemen would vote for Satan. T. C. Wheeler
kunda@uicsg.UUCP (04/15/84)
#R:pyuxa:-69800:uicsg:17600018:000:634 uicsg!kunda Apr 15 12:34:00 1984 How about the mining of Nicaragua. This is a raw fact, not a generalization. If you want proof pick up any news paper, you will find the truth. How about escalating defence spending. Don't tell me it is a generalization. Cutting the school lunch programs. All the children need is ketchup. This is a true fact. Here is a partial list of corrupt people Ed Meese, Richard Allen, James Watt. Marines in Lebanon. Sure, you don't care. None of your brothers or relatives died in Lebanon. Nobody makes up these stories, if you are looking for raw facts it just shows that you are not being informed about the true facts.
liberte@uiucdcs.UUCP (04/16/84)
#R:pyuxa:-69800:uiucdcs:29200130:000:1004
uiucdcs!liberte Apr 15 21:25:00 1984
Being a peon, I am not in a position to know the true actions and motivations
of the world leaders as filtered through higher level peons. I arrive at
generalizations which I feel are true - and this is a valid way to go.
(Is the chair you are sitting on solid? Ask a physicist. Is it really
there? Ask a philosopher. Was Nixon a crook? Ask a politicion.)
Regarding my indirect accusations of Nixons crimes: All I did was to
shift the emphasis away from a presumption of innocence because he was
NEVER convicted to a question of guilt because he might have been
CONVICTED had he been tried, and had more facts come out in the process.
I dont hold much stock in our injustice system, nor in the lethargislative
or execution branches of our government. It was a good experiment, but
now we need to try something different.
Daniel LaLiberte, U of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, Computer Science
{moderation in all things - including moderation}
BTW, the democrates arent doing a whole lot better.welsch@houxu.UUCP (Larry Welsch) (04/17/84)
I Nixon was innocent of any wrong doing then why was he pardoned? Larry Welsch houxu!welsch
mwm@ea.UUCP (04/18/84)
#R:pyuxa:-69800:ea:10100032:000:2036 ea!mwm Apr 17 16:33:00 1984 T.C. Wheeler asks for specific examples of Reagan lying. Here is what he gets: /***** ea:net.politics / uicsg!kunda / 12:34 pm Apr 15, 1984 */ > How about the mining of Nicaragua. This isn't a fact. Reagan didn't mine Nicaragua. Somebody in the DoD mine Nicaragua's harbors - probably with Reagan's consent. This is an act of war, and well outside RR's powers. Worse yet, he refuses to accept the International Court's ruling in this case. But since he's effectively at war, that's only to be expected. > How about escalating defence spending. So? Everybody does that. He also escalated welfare spending. Of course, he escalated the first derivative of defense spending, and lowered the first derivative for welfare. At the moment, these are both good things. > Cutting the school lunch programs. Again, good for Reagan! Getting the Federal Govt. out of the schools is probably the best thing RR's done. I'll believe this one is good until you can show me a documented case of someone starving to death for lack of it. > Here is a partial list of corrupt people >Ed Meese, Richard Allen, James Watt. James Watt isn't corrupt, he's merely incompetent. Then again, he's a political appointee. What do you expect? As for the others, I would say two in an administration isn't to bad. > Marines in Lebanon. Trying to stabilize an area isn't a lie or a crime. Maybe we shouldn't have attempted to stabilize Europe in 1942. After all, Germany and Italy never did anything to us. /* ---------- */ I have some very strong opinions on the way the US currently wages wars - uh, excuse me, "armed conflicts." I forgot that we don't have wars any more. What Reagan is doing doesn't bother nearly as much as the way he's doing it, but he's following precedents that were set in WWII. In any event, uicsg!kunda didn't answer the questions, he merely listed some things Reagan has done offends socialists and liberals. Try answering the questions. Or would that leave you in the embarrassing position of not having any answers? <mike
mwm@ea.UUCP (04/19/84)
#R:pyuxa:-69800:ea:10100033:000:647
ea!mwm Apr 19 14:41:00 1984
/***** ea:net.politics / uiucdcs!liberte / 9:25 pm Apr 15, 1984 */
I dont hold much stock in our injustice system, nor in the lethargislative
or execution branches of our government. It was a good experiment, but
now we need to try something different.
Daniel LaLiberte, U of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, Computer Science
{moderation in all things - including moderation}
/* ---------- */
Fair enough. I'd like to try something different too. Since I can't think of
anything that I think would be better, I keep trying to get what we've got
now improved (in my opinion, naturally). Can you think of something better?
If so, TELL US!
<mikeliberte@uiucdcs.UUCP (04/23/84)
#R:pyuxa:-69800:uiucdcs:29200134:000:3851
uiucdcs!liberte Apr 22 18:36:00 1984
/**** uiucdcs:net.politics / ea!mwm / 2:41 pm Apr 19, 1984 ****/
Fair enough. I'd like to try something different too. Since I can't think of
anything that I think would be better, I keep trying to get what we've got
now improved (in my opinion, naturally). Can you think of something better?
If so, TELL US!
/* ---------- */
I would tend to agree that the basic framework of the US Constitution is not
a half bad job. There are many significant merits. However, the writers
could not anticipate all the abuses it would be used to justify. It also
lacks in its ability to cope with today's situation. There is always the
provision for holding a new Constitutional Convention, but even I would be
afraid of the consequences given the "powers that be" that would be dominant
factors in such an action.
Some of the things I would like to see:
Participative Democracy - none of this "representative" stuff which is not
really representative and so easily abused. I want people to have
a direct say in policy matters through referendum. Of course, it
takes an educated populace for this to work. But then it is to the
advantage of everyone to encourage education everywhere, rather than
to rely on those smart looking representatives. Participative
Democracy would do the general, policy making work of the legislative
branch.
Professional Management - If managers were hired as in a business to carry out
the policies voted on by the populace, and were subject to removal
or transfer based on the quality of the work done, then things
might work alot better. These managers, a hierarcy of them, would
be like representatives in doing the job they were hired to do.
But the big difference is that there are no terms of office. The
hierarcy probably should be hired from the bottom up with the people
hiring the lowest level, local managers. Professional Management
would be the executive branch and act on the policies of the
nation as a whole - the people.
Justice - the most important branch of government - needs to be heavily
reworked. Judges must be the most highly educated (mind, body,
spirit) individuals we can find, for they uphold the law - they
are the highest-level interpreters of the law. (The people are
the final interpreters of the law - they decide whether it is
law for them.) Judges should perhaps be elected but with very
rigorous qualifications, and as long as the qualifications are
maintained, serve for life.
This is just the political/justice system. The economic system is another
thing entirely, but the two must work together. Notice that the US
Constitution does not say much one way or the other on the economics
front. People associate capitalism with democracy, but 1) other combinations
with socialism and communism are possible and 2) what we have now is neither
capitalism nor democracy in the pure sense, but moving towards monopoly and
tyranny with some socialism mixed in.
For the sake of argument, I believe in individual free enterprise
and collective socialism. That is, private ownership of what you yourself
create, produce and purchase with freedom to choose, but national ownership
of corporations with national selection of management. If you have something
worthy of a business, take it up with the business experts. If you dont
like their decision, take it up with the Justice department. Everyone
selected to work in the corporation would benefit from the success of the
business through profit sharing. Everyone would benefit from a successful
business through better products and less waste.
So these are some of my ideas. They are not worked out and lots of loose ends
need to be put together or pulled apart. Have at it.
Daniel LaLiberte, U of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, Computer Science
{moderation in all things - including moderation}