tac@teldata.UUCP () (05/30/84)
, (sop to the blank line eaters--consider it a religious sacrifice) >> From: keduh@hogpd.UUCP >> Subject: RE: Federal Attack on Religion? >> >> In the original article, the author postulated a conspiracy >> on the part of the federal government (of the USA) to >> kill religion. The author offered some points to ponder, and >> I'd like to take him up on it..... I'm going to let Warren respond with the legal precedents, since it was his statement. There are several points that I would like to take up in this article however, merely in the interests of truly enlightened dialogue. First let me state that I am not in to "organized" religion. >> >> .... I really >> do not believe that the "private, quiet, individual saying of grace >> before meals in the school cafeteria" has been called unlawful >> by any responsible party. Are you sure it was quiet, individual >> prayer and not a group exercise? >> The case Warren refered to involved the setting aside of a time for students to say grace to themselves. One school made it their policy to allow a time period (I don't recall the exact amount, ~2 minutes) for the saying of grace and requested all students to be silent for that period of time. As I recall, this upset some not-so-religious types (maybe atheists but I didn't realize atheism as a creed included a disbelief in quiet) who took the school to court. If all of this makes no sense at all to you you win a prize for having more intelligence than those involved in the case. >> >* An Oregon U.S. district court decision to enjoin the Portland >> > school board from having an invocation during commencement >> > exercises. >> >> I see nothing wrong with this. Why should a public entity endorse >> a particular religion by having an invocation at a public ceremony? >> If some people want this sort of thing, why don't they talk their >> local minister/priest/etc. into letting them stop by their >> church/synagogue/etc. before or after the public ceremony for >> their own private, religious one ? Generally, invocations before public events are non-secular. I know it is hard to even mention the big G without stepping on somebody's toes name wise ("Daddy, why did they say god when we know his name is Yahweh?"), but the spirit of the thing is what may interest you. The framers of our Constitution (U.S. for those of you from elsewhere) wrote in the clauses used for justification of these decisions, yet they opened EVERY session of the Constitutional convention with an invocation!!! Actually it was a prayer for guidance in writing the document!! These very same people who had fled religious tyranny. They wanted religion to be ever present (ever wondered why our coins all say "In God We Trust"?), they just didn't want the state taking sides. These same people were of MANY differing religions. >> >> In the original article, there were then some comments concerning >> freedom of religion. I would like to make the plea for >> freedom FROM Organized Religion. As I recall it, many of our >> forefathers ( does anyone really think I mean only the males >> by this?... just to be safe let me specifically state that >> I also mean foremothers ) >> left their countries because of persecution. It seems >> their religious beliefs didn't quite coincide with those of >> the official federal religion. Please don't lets us (hey, colloquial !) >> allow the government to be swayed by the political might of >> organized religion into repeating past mistakes. If one particular >> brand of religion (probably would be some flavor of Christianity) >> "takes over" so to speak, there's no longer too many places left >> to escape to. Persecution is ugly; persecution in the name of >> religion is abominable !! >> Please see the above answer to some of this, as for the rest... I also do not wish to be forced into an organized religion. One of the past mistakes which we are in danger of repeating is denying all religions from having public expression--just as bad as chosing one only. The problem I see with the present direction is that ONLY the LARGE organized religions are safe, and even those not so safe. I wish to be able to say a prayer any where, any time that I wish without someone else saying I have violated their rights. I feel that a large degree of the erosion of morals (I refuse to call it "moral fiber") in this country comes from the state supported impression given to our children that religion is a bad thing. Don't get me wrong, more suffering, bloodshed, persecution and hate has been generated by religion in the history of the world than by all other causes, but that is from misguided people who felt that they knew what was right for others. ANY fanatic is bad, religious ones just have more followers. [Boy am I out on a limb here!] However, going in the other direction is the same thing--when you outlaw the practice of a religion it really makes no difference whether that is the only one you have made illegal or if you outlaw all of them, the effect is the same and BAD! >> >> Hey that was fun !! I hope my tone was not too argumentative, but what >> the heck.... it's easy to delete hate mail :-). This whole subject intrigues >> me, but both sides (most of which are well-meaning and kindly >> people otherwise) feel so strongly about the issues that things get >> rather heated up and abusive fairly quickly. Let's see if we can >> debate the topic a while longer before slipping into flames (and >> condemning people to same :-) ) >> >> {ihnp4! or pegasus!} hogpd!keduh >> Great idea. I have always enjoyed a sharing of ideas. Hey, any rational responses out there? All we need now is a good compromise!?! From the Soapbox (best portable pulpit there is) of Tom Condon {...!uw-beaver!teltone!teldata!tac} A Radical A Day Keeps The Government At Bay. PostScript: I would like to take a pole on the number of you who feel that there has been an erosion of morals in the US of late. Please mail those answers right in. DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed herein are those of everyone who matters, but not necessarily anyone you know, and most certainly not my employers!
curts@mako.UUCP (Curt Stephens) (06/01/84)
I do not think that less public support of religion has resulted in fewer americans with good morals. In fact, I am convinced that recent events, such as the Viet Nam war, have pushed us out of an earlier stage of general ambivalency and triggered a steady increase in the number of americans that develop a "social imagination". I will provide examples of this upon request. Being religious is not synonomous with being ethical. To illustrate this, I ask you to consider the number of persecutions, executions, and holy wars that can be attributed to each of the worlds "great religions". I will provide examples of this upon request. The issue of school prayer is not simply a question of whether students include religious activity during their school day. It is, in addition, a question of whether the inclusion of one activity would exclude the religious activity of some other student. For example, a moment of silent prayer during a school day is oriented to a minority of religions. That is, MOST religions require that prayers be said out loud. To pray in silence is not prayer for some. Note that I said MOST religions. I will provide examples of this upon request. < Always trying to see both sides, Curt Stephens >
heahd@tellab1.UUCP (Dan Wood) (06/04/84)
Bob,
You may be right about your figures and the fact that political reasons have
accounted for more deaths than religious ones have, but you fail to notice the
differences between technologies available to both groups of persecutors and
the differences in world population levels. Had the Inquisition the means and
the number of victims available that Hitler, Lennin, et al had, I've no doubt
whatsoever that they would have killed at least an equal number of people.
Just because the religious fanatics have killed fewer people than dictators
have, they are no less dangerous. The viciousness of a regime (either
religious or political) is not measured by the number of victims but by the
zeal with which they pursue them.
--
Yrs. in Fear and Loathing,
The Blue Buffalo
Haunted by the -
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t of G
...!ihnp4!tellab1!heahd