wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (06/11/84)
Ken P says that Ed Asner is no flaming leftist. A very curious claim indeed. I would certainly hate to see what he considers a flaming leftist if Asner is to the right. The image of Lucifer comes to mind, but not being into religion, it fades. In case you are wondering Perlow, the Sandinistas would very much like to aquire certain territories now under the government of Honduras. This argument has been seething for 100 years. When the Sandies came to power, the vowed to take certain areas of Honduras and El Salvador. Where now is the threat of imminent invasion? Further, why are the ships gathered at the docks of Honduras, not off-loading food and medical supplies instead of arms, the most common complaint of the people on the streets of Honduras? And, have you noticed the registry of those ships? If the Sandies are so damned innocent, why are they gathering offensive weapons instead of defensive weapons? Would that things could be so liberally simple. Try looking beyond the simplistic liberal reports and discover what is behind the Sandanista revolution. Innocent farmers they are not. T. C. Wheeler
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (06/12/84)
-- [from T C Wheeler] >> Ken P says that Ed Asner is no flaming leftist. A very curious >> claim indeed. I would certainly hate to see what he considers >> a flaming leftist if Asner is to the right. The image of >> Lucifer comes to mind, but not being into religion, it fades. That's right, Asner is no flaming leftist. I'm sure he is a liberal, and probably a democratic socialist. What are you saying, T.C., everyone to the left of Walter Mondale is a Commie? >> In case you are wondering Perlow, the Sandinistas would very >> much like to aquire certain territories now under the government >> of Honduras. This argument has been seething for 100 years. I wasn't wondering, I know. The eastern end of the Honduras-Nicaragua border has been disputed for a long time. >> When the Sandies came to power, the vowed to take certain areas >> of Honduras and El Salvador. Oh, El Salvador, too? They have no border with Salvador. References, please. >> Where now is the threat of imminent invasion? From the CIA-backed counter-revolutionaries. (You knew that.) >> Further, why are the ships gathered at >> the docks of Honduras, not off-loading food and medical supplies >> instead of arms, the most common complaint of the people >> on the streets of Honduras? And, have you noticed the registry >> of those ships? What does this mean? These questions make no sense. Calm down. >> If the Sandies are so damned innocent, why are >> they gathering offensive weapons instead of defensive weapons? >> Would that things could be so liberally simple. Try looking >> beyond the simplistic liberal reports and discover what is >> behind the Sandanista revolution. Innocent farmers they are >> not. >> T. C. Wheeler T. C. here thinks I'm to the left of Lucifer, or Asner, or somebody, so his mind races on--I therefore support the Sandanistas unequivocally, and Moscow too, huh? Talk about liberally simple. Who says the Sandanistas are innocent? The reports I believe most are first hand, from a guy who is closer to libertarian than anything else. Also speaks fluent Spanish. Well T.C., you seem to know a lot about Nicaragua yourself, so tell us what a great guy Somoza was. Also which weapons are offensive instead of defensive. I'm sure the Sandanistas have some tricks up their sleeves--they'd hardly have stood up against the CIA without them. Innocent farmers they are not, and innocent bystanders we are not. If you've got facts, let's see them. The situation is obviously very complex. That's what makes it so damned interesting. Uh, oh, Lucifer again. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 11 Jun 84 [23 Prairial An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
dxp@pyuxhh.UUCP (D Peak) (06/12/84)
TCW >> When the Sandies came to power, the vowed to take certain areas
TCW >> of Honduras and El Salvador.
KP Oh, El Salvador, too? They have no border with Salvador.
KP References, please.
TCW = TCWheeler KP=KenPerlow
I'm afraid I'm not so sure that there is no common border between
Nicaragua and El Salvador.
I'll agree that there is no land border , however El Salvador has some
islands in the Gulf of Fonseca (the mass of water bordered by Nicargua,
[on the SE],Honduras [on the NE] and El Salvador [on the NW] ).These
islands are less than 12 miles from Nicaragua. It it possible than a
maritime boundary exists between N & ES .
Moreover , it is quite possible that these islands(+ mainland ES [less
than 40 miles away from N]) could be among lands viewed by N as a
possible threat to their existence due to the close proximity of
a diametrically opposed regime(ES).
I hope I'm not seen as nit picking at Ken's reply but feel that he
might have overstepped the mark on this generalization.Keep up the
good work both of you (KP & TCW) as I see you both serving as
generally presenting well thought arguments which all of us can use
some help doing.
--
Dave Peak (pyuxhh!dxp)
" The bare necessaties of life : Food,Clothing and a blonde ! "
- W.C. Fieldsmjk@tty3b.UUCP (Mike Kelly) (06/13/84)
T. C. Wheeler, in a rather muddled submission, says: >Further, why are the ships gathered at >the docks of Honduras, not off-loading food and medical supplies >instead of arms, the most common complaint of the people >on the streets of Honduras? And, have you noticed the registry >of those ships? If the Sandies are so damned innocent, why are >they gathering offensive weapons instead of defensive weapons? >Would that things could be so liberally simple. Try looking >beyond the simplistic liberal reports and discover what is >behind the Sandanista revolution. Innocent farmers they are >not. What is your point here? Honduras is a U.S. ally -- any ships landing there "not off-loading food and medical supplies instead of arms" is because the U.S. government is more interested in sending arms than food and medical supplies. Surprise, surprise. Further, if I were a country of about three million facing an all-but- declared war from the one of the most powerful nations in the world, I'd be collecting all the weapons I can get my hands on. Rather than chastise Nicaragua for collecting more weapons than are needed for its own defense (which is Reagan's line, not my opinion), the U.S. should look at its own bloated military -- those bases in the Phillipines and Greece certainly aren't for our defense, either. As to the base of the Sandinista revolution, perhaps T.C. can fill us all in on the secret Moscow connection that Reagan keeps raving about. My reading on the Nicaraguan revolution attributes it to a broad uprising of all classes, based strongly on Catholic working-class people. Religious base communities, a sort of rural community organization, also played a crucial part in organizing people and motivating them. The actions of the Sandinistas after the revolution attest to this. Outside of the Mesquitos, which was a bad mistake, there was no mass political jailings or executions in Nicaragua. Rather than deriding "simplistic liberal reports", perhaps you should look beyond the unsubstantiated ramblings of Reagan and Time. Where is the proof? Where are the "massive arms shipments" Reagan is always talking about? Have you ever seen any pictures of any? How many have been intercepted? But what it really comes down to is that it takes one helluva nerve to practically wage war against a sovereign nation and then protest that they're building up their army against it. Mike Kelly
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (06/13/84)
I stand accused and red faced. The off-loading of the ships was Not in Honduras as I said but Nicaragua. And yes, there have been pictures of arms being unloaded. And yes, there have been interviews with people in the streets who complained about not receiving food and medical supplies from those supposed friends who brought the ships. And yes, the church in Nicaragua is under attack from the government. And yes, opposition party members dare not show their faces in public. And yes, the Sandanista government has CANCELLED the general elections that were set for later this year. And yes, the government is requiring the populace to form into education groups for the soul purpose of stuffing their party line down their throats. And yes, by sending free goodies to the Sandanistas you allow them to purchase more weapons. And yes, Samoza was an animal and should have been wasted 20 years ago. And yes, the people are no better off than now than they were before the revolution. And yes, the church in Nicaragua must take some of the blame for the situation under Samoza. And yes, I was at first glad to see the Sandanistas kick that old f*rt out of power. And yes, I have since had second thoughts as to the motives of the current Sandanista leaders. And finally, yes, the situation in Central America is as complex and intertwined as a New York Central Office frame room. What is the solution? I do not pretend to know, but I know one thing, it is Not as simplistic as some of our more vocal liberals seem to think. T. C. Wheeler
lkk@mit-eddie.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) (06/16/84)
From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler): And yes, the Sandanista government has CANCELLED the general elections that were set for later this year. -------------------- NO! The govt. postponed the elections until the beginning of next year. The Salvadorean govt. postponed their elections many times before they actually happened. How many other of the charges in you last message were half-truths I don't know.