bprice@bmcg.UUCP (08/21/84)
> Amazing how some people feel that "taking away their >rights to impose their views on their children" is equivalent to some sort of >tyranny by the state, when what the "state" is trying to do is to ensure open >responsible education without bias. >-- >"Submitted for your approval..." Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr If it is so, that the state is honestly trying to "ensure open responsible education without bias," then it's doing such a poor job that the education function should be taken away from them forthwith. Judging by results, though, the degree of closed, irresponsible, biased indoctrination of our offspring, that the state has shown, the conclusion is obvious: the indoctrination is the purpose. Take a look at some of the tenets installed in our kids by, among others, the state "education" system: 1. "Democracy" is the US political system. 2. "Democracy" is the prime value. 3. Democratic government is good; All labor unions are good. 4. Republican government is evil; All employers are evil. 5. Any problem is caused by a lack of government, and can only be cured by more government. 6. Parents are always evil; kids' bad behaviours are the result of parents. 7. The "education" system is the repository of all wisdom. 8. The "education" system has no problems, except that the government won't provide enough money. 9. The opinions taught by the "education" system are the only valid ones; any disagreement shows you to be evil and worthy of destruction. The list above comes boiling off the top of my head, and reflects my observations of my children, the children of others, the behavior of the unions, and the behavior of the government, among other sources. If I were to spend more time on it, I could come up with a much longer list, showing Rosen's blindness to the facts, and giving more concrete examples. The list I have given is self-explanatory, though. Only a little honest contemplation shows that these examples do hold; and that Rosen's defence of the "education" system qualifies as "knee-jerk." -- --Bill Price uucp: {decvax!ucbvax philabs}!sdcsvax!bmcg!bprice arpa:? sdcsvax!bmcg!bprice@nosc
edhall@randvax.UUCP (08/22/84)
NOTE: I have removed ``net.singles'' from the distribution for this
followup. Please do likewise! It does not belong there.
> Take a look at some of the tenets installed in our kids by, among others, the
> state "education" system:
> 1. "Democracy" is the US political system.
> 2. "Democracy" is the prime value.
> 3. Democratic government is good; All labor unions are good.
> 4. Republican government is evil; All employers are evil.
> 5. Any problem is caused by a lack of government, and can only be cured by more
> government.
> 6. Parents are always evil; kids' bad behaviours are the result of parents.
> 7. The "education" system is the repository of all wisdom.
> 8. The "education" system has no problems, except that the government won't
> provide enough money.
> 9. The opinions taught by the "education" system are the only valid ones; any
> disagreement shows you to be evil and worthy of destruction.
>
> The list above comes boiling off the top of my head, and reflects my
> observations of my children, the children of others, the behavior of the
> unions, and the behavior of the government, among other sources.
. . . .
> --Bill Price
Where did you go to school? And what kind of school are your kids
in? Several of my friends and family are teachers, and I know of
none of them that would agree (or teach) anything but #1 (which they
would freely admit as being an oversimplification of our system of
government).
The paranoia implicit in your posting is extreme--in fact, in item #9
I'd say it borders on the pathological. ``Evil and worthy of destruc-
tion''???? I'm speechless...
This ain't the USSR, ya know.
-Ed Hall
decvax!randvax!edhallrrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo) (08/22/84)
Re Bill Price's followup: I can believe the 9 "tenets" of what gov't tries to inculcate in the young came "boiling off the top of my [Bill Price's] head": they sound like the ravings of a lunatic! Was the posting facetious, or does Mr. Price actually mean to make his claims seriously? Some of the "tenets" are so utterly divorced from simple reality that they quite literally fit Richard Hofstadter's label "the paranoid style in politics" and eerily resemble schizophrenic delusions. The threat of being considered insane apparently no longer acts to inhibit political expression in this country. "Curiouser and curiouser...." Ron Rizzo
djw@imsvax.UUCP (08/23/84)
<worm in teacher's apple...> Paranoid ravings? Not really. It's like the little things in newspapers and magazines which, when isolated, seem meaningless, but, when put together, have a BIG impact... Now, admittedly, my grade-school years are a little past, but not all that much, and, while I wouldn't have come up with all the items on that list off- hand, I can see where they all exist. "Democracy is good" et al: Don't you remember standing up in class and saying the pledge of allegiance every day? Don't you remember the rosy, almost syrupy-sweet descriptions of our forefathers in our history readers? You don't? Well, now, isn't that interesting... "The education system is correct" etc. Let me add to that one, "Free thought is not encouraged, as it is obviously opposed to the system." I could read before I got into first grade. Nothing seems to irk a teacher more than a tiny tot who already knows what (s)he is trying to teach. I have been pun- ished for not keeping up in group reading sessions, when in reality I was two pages ahead of everyone. It wasn't quite that bad in later years, but, if I came up with something sufficiently original to be different from the agenda, the general reaction was, "Go away, kid; you bother me..." Are you saying it wasn't like this everywhere? If not, I may have some law suits to catch up on... "Parents are to blame for all problems": A little stronger than I remember, but it did seem to be the policy. The problems in the above paragraph were sufficient to have me branded as a miscreant: obviously I was dumb, and obvi- ously my parents were the cause because of bad treatment, lack of discipline, and so on. I was promptly taken to a child psychologist, who evaluated my IQ at 142, and came to the conclusion that, if I were allowed by my educators to think, I'd be just fine. That was around second grade; it happened twice more before tenth. In all three cases, the advice fell on deaf ears. Now, maybe I am a paranoid lunatic as well, but the problems I have encountered seem to indicate the potential for others. I mean, I find it hard to believe that I, and the original poster of the "ravings", are the only ones to have run up against these things... Don Whytock ...allegra!umcp-cs!eneevax!imsvax!djw
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (08/26/84)
If the US education system supprts the Democrats, why did you have a GOP
landslide in '72 and look set for another in '84 and why have you only had
one Demo. president since 1968? Indoctrination that doesn't work isn't
much to worry about! We have compulsory (unless by express parental
objection) Religious Education in England, with Religious Services in schools
in theory every day, and the Church of England is moribund with only about
1% of the youth even nominally attending!
Ian G. Batten (UK Citizen, B'ham Univ, England)
--
Barry Gold/Lee Gold
usenet: {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet: barry@BNLward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) (08/27/84)
[]
Did somebody say the educational system favored the Democrats?
Is that the same as saying it favors democracy? (I know a few
who would think so)
*Sigh* just another failure of our schools. :-)
--
Michael Ward, NCAR/SCD
UUCP: {hplabs,nbires,brl-bmd,seismo,menlo70,stcvax}!hao!sa!ward
ARPA: hplabs!hao!sa!ward@Berkeley
BELL: 303-497-1252
USPS: POB 3000, Boulder, CO 80307jjs@iham1.UUCP (J.J. Sowa) (08/30/84)
I had just unsubscribed to net.kids because of the babble to and from rich
rosen only to find some clown like you shoving this garbage into other news
groups. If you want to keep this trash in net.kids or mail it directly to Rich
Rosen, but try keeping the other groups clean for humanity.
Jim Sowa
ihnp4!iham1!jjs
Summary:
If the US education system supprts the Democrats, why did you have a GOP
landslide in '72 and look set for another in '84 and why have you only had
one Demo. president since 1968? Indoctrination that doesn't work isn't
much to worry about! We have compulsory (unless by express parental
objection) Religious Education in England, with Religious Services in schools
in theory every day, and the Church of England is moribund with only about
1% of the youth even nominally attending!
Ian G. Batten (UK Citizen, B'ham Univ, England)
--
Barry Gold/Lee Gold
usenet: {decvax!allegra|ihnp4}!sdcrdcf!ucla-s!lcc!barry
Arpanet: barry@BNL
--
Thanks
Jim Sowa
ihnp4!iham1!jjs
(312) 979-6150