wjm@whuxl.UUCP (MITCHELL) (08/07/84)
A reply to Doug Hosking, which I'm posting to the net since I think it is of more general interest. The article that sparked my original reply and Doug's response discussed the use of driver's license numbers as the only reasonable form of ID to mark on audio equipment and appeared in net.audio. Doug, I can certainly understand your predicament - However, what REALLY irks me is the concept of a universal ID card (especially in 1984 of all years), since it makes it easier for Big Brother to watch everything you do. I realize that Europeans accept the concept of a government issued ID, but this is the USA, and Americans have a long tradition (thank goodness) of opposing such police state tactics. A driver's license should serve only ONE purpose, that of stating that the bearer is qualified to operate a motor vehicle of the appropriate class, not be used as a universal ID. I'll be glad to provide one of several generally accepted ID cards to banks, stores, etc on request (major credit cards, employer ID, library card, ham radio license, PE license, among others) - its not that I don't recognize the need for ID with all the bum checks, etc floating around, its just that I'd rather each group issue its own ID and accept SEVERAL different ID cards. Needless to say, I also object to the use of the SSN for any purpose other than Social Security accounting. (OK, I'll grant the IRS the right to use it for Federal income tax purposes under a grandfather clause.) Regards, Bill Mitchell (whuxl!wjm)
dxp@pyuxhh.UUCP (D Peak) (08/08/84)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realize that Europeans accept the concept of a government issued ID, but this
is the USA, and Americans have a long tradition (thank goodness) of opposing
such police state tactics.
Bill Mitchell (whuxl!wjm)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill,
Another sweeping generalization .......where is your basis for this ?
In England you don't even need to carry your drivers license when driving !
The police will give you 7 days to produce drivers lic.,insurance and the
equivilent of registration at ANY police station YOU specify.
So tell me what national ID was I supposed to be carrying ?
Give same info for Dutch,French,Belgians,etc etc !!!!!!!!!!
I thought red tape was bad in Europe until I came to the US.What do you call
the current operations of most state patrols along Interstate highways is as
oppressive as the Gaurdia Civil in Spain(during Franco's regime).Don't you
worry about maybe you're doing something wrong whenever you see a state
trooper these days ??
--
Dave Peak (pyuxhh!dxp)
Ye Gods and little fishes !!!!!!!!!!!!!wjm@whuxl.UUCP (MITCHELL) (08/09/84)
<gulpies> In re Dave Peak's query about Europeans requiring national ID's" 1) Most Scandanavian countries (Sweden, definitely - and I think the same is true of Denmark and Norway) have gov't issued ID numbers and cards. 2) I believe the same is true in the Netherlands 3) The French have a requirement that all travelers register with the police upon arrival in a city (actually your hotel does this for you by taking your passport to the police station when you check in) and I believe the Germans may have a similar rule. However, Dave, you missed my whole point. If the Europeans DON'T have national ID cards thats ALL the more reason NOT to have them in the USA. My point is quite simple - I strenuously object to a driver's license (or anything else) becoming a unique national ID. ID is necessary in some circumstances, but I don't want one UNIVERSAL ID that Big Brother can use to keep track of everyone easily. In answer to Dave's question about state troopers, since I don't drive the answer is no. Besides, I'd like to see the police watch the highways more closely for drunk drivers, since the DWI's kill 25K people each year in the USA (but that's material for another net.politics article). Frankly, I suspect the state police won't bother you if you're obeying the law. Bill Mitchell (whuxl!wjm)
alan@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Alan Algustyniak) (08/14/84)
<Does any *other* country have 4 official languages?!>
Switzerland also has a govn issued ID card. It is not only used
for identification, but sometimes also to make class distinctions.
For example, when i lived in Switz. my card had a brown band across
it to indicate i was a 'civil servant.' That brown band saved me
from some hassles. For example, if i was loitering in suspicious
circumstansec, or in a place with restricted access, a simple flash
of my brown-banded card was always enough to cause whoever was
questioning me to simply turn around and walk away. I was amazed!
Switz. has some other interesting laws:
Every bldg built must have a basement which serves soley as a bomb
shelter. It is illegal to even decorate it and use it as an additional
family room, for example.
When having a house built, the plan must be submitted to the neighbors,
and can be rejected if a neighbor complains, even tho no codes are
broken.
Every Swiss male must have his military weapons and ammo 'handy.' This
usually means: in his apt.
When driving, everyone who wears glasses must carry a spare pair.
Everyone must have at least 50 Swiss Frances with him at all times.
If not, you can be found guilty of vagrancy (sp?). This happened to a
friend of a friend who was stopped for speeding and couldn't pay the
30SF to the cop because he had only French currecy with him.
It is illegal to take a bath or shower after 10 pm. Note: this may only
apply to apt. dwellers. I don't know.
When addressing a man in uniform, you must use the 'formal' form of the
pronoun 'you.' They tell the story of a man who shouted to his brother,
who was in uniform, at the Geneva train station, using the familiar
form out of habit, and was arrested, found guilty, and sent to prison.
That's all for now.
Alan Algustyniak (ihnp4!sdcrdcf!alan)
(allegra!sdcrdcf!alan) (cbosgd!sdcrdcf!alan)faustus@ucbvax.UUCP (Wayne Christopher) (08/14/84)
That's not quite true -- the only places that you have to register with the police when you enter a city are Communist countries (the USSR for sure, and I'm not sure which others). Wayne
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (08/15/84)
For those who are interested in the Swiss military and their interaction with civilian life, I recommend a two-part article in the New Yorker (sometime since last October) by John McPhee on the subject. It will probably come out as a book, or part of one, soon, as all McPhee's work does. An excellent article and most interesting. He did not mention some of the things noted in the base posting; if the articles are expanded into a book, I hope he includes more on Swiss life in general. (McPhee is probably my favorite author, by the way. He makes ANYTHING interesting. I hate sports, but enjoyed reading his biography of Arthur Ashe, the tennis player, for example.) Will
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (08/16/84)
There are many non-communist countries that require travelers to be registered. Look at France, Spain, Switzerland amoung a few. You don't do the registering, but your hotel or hostel does it for you. T. C Wheeler
mjk@tty3b.UUCP (Mike Kelly) (08/16/84)
All French citizens are issued a Carte Nationale d'Identite, which can be requested on the street. Tourists are required to fill out a card when registering at a hotel giving your passport number, your country of origin and birthdate. This card is delivered to the local prefect. I don't know what proposal was recently defeated in France, but it couldn't have been a proposal for a national identity card. It already exists. Mike Kelly
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (08/17/84)
********************
That's not quite true -- the only places that you have to
register with the police when you enter a city are Communist
countries (the USSR for sure, and I'm not sure which others).
********************
And at least Italy, when we visited this summer ... but the hotel that
takes your passport when you register does it for you, so you don't
actually have to visit the police station unless you are staying with
friends or otherwise don't go to a hotel or campground.
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt
{uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsrgv!dciem!mmtnrf@whuxle.UUCP (Fildes) (08/17/84)
That's not quite true -- the only places that you have to register with the police when you enter a city are Communist countries (the USSR for sure, and I'm not sure which others). in Bangkok, you have to register with the police. as far as I know, they are not communist there. NRF -- * o Neal Fildes, AT&T Bell Laboratories Whippany, NJ, U.S.A. * (whuxlf!nrf) <201-386-6493> * * * *
linda@inuxd.UUCP (Linda Pearlstein) (08/17/84)
An ad for John McPhee's book on Switzerland just appeared in The New Yorker as "Place de la Concorde Suisse," published by Farrar et al. Having just spent five weeks in Switzerland this summer, and being a great fan of McPhee's, I can't wait to read it. Our Swiss hosts told of their sons' grueling experiences in the Swiss version of basic training. It sounds as though everyone goes through the U.S. equivalent of the Marine's Paris Island -- several deaths occur periodically from pushing soldiers beyond their limits. The soldiers do indeed retain their weapons in their homes. Our host also pointed out unmarked military facilities at the faces of some of Switzerland's many mountains -- these facilities go for miles into the heart of mountains and are used to store military equipment of all sorts. It's a remarkable system.
ward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) (08/17/84)
[] > The only places that you have to > register with the police when you enter a city are Communist > countries (the USSR for sure, and I'm not sure which others). I didn't know South Africa was a Communist country. (Or are the only "you's" in your world white?) -- Michael Ward, NCAR/SCD UUCP: {hplabs,nbires,brl-bmd,seismo,menlo70,stcvax}!hao!sa!ward ARPA: hplabs!hao!sa!ward@Berkeley BELL: 303-497-1252 USPS: POB 3000, Boulder, CO 80307
faustus@ucbvax.UUCP (Wayne Christopher) (08/20/84)
In West Germany you can be put in jail for not carrying your ID card with you. A few years ago there was a major effort to decrease terrorism, and the police compiled profiles of the activities of many suspected terrorists. Many people were arrested only because they happened to have rather suspicious habits. Most Germans accepted this sort of control without much complaint. However, a proposal for mandatory ID's in France was recently rejected, and the rationale was that if some dictator like Hitler were to arise, it would make it easier for him if such a system were already in place. (It's ironic that this should be a worry for the French and not the Germans.) But all this sort of thing depends on the character and traditions of the people involved, and I think if any people are likely to reject this sort of control it is the American people. (Whether you want to call it love of freedom or pathological intractibility is up to you...) Wayne
spear@ihopb.UUCP (Steven Spearman) (08/20/84)
Also, when in England on a 9 month entry permit, you are required to register with the police in the town nearest your school. Seemed to be no real reason for it other than to get 20 pounds sterling from you. -- Steve Spearman ihnp4!ihopb!spear
wjm@whuxl.UUCP (MITCHELL) (08/20/84)
----- News saved at Mon, 20-Aug-84 13:05:18 EDT <muncho> Revisiting the subject of ID cards (and the use of driver's licenses as same): My experience (and that of my friends) is that quite a few NON-COMMUNIST Western European nations (including Sweden, Switzerland, and France (also perhaps West Germany)) have either a) nationally issued ID cards and/or b) requirements for vistors to register with the local police (OK - when you check into a hotel the hotel does it for you by taking your passport over to the police). From reading previous comments, I suspect that very few countries do NOT have such requirements - the U.S.A., Canada, and the U.K. being 3 of the only exceptions. That brings me to the crux of the argument and why I posted the original article about government ID cards. Most USENET contributors live in one of the 3 exception countries. The United States of America was founded by people with a strong concern for individual rights and liberties (why did they insist that the Bill of Rights be included in the US Constitution?) and American history contains many stories of how these rights have been protected throughout the past 200+ years. In the spirit of protecting these rights in the Big Brother era of 1984, it is ESSENTIAL that we NOT have a universal, easy to trace, government issued ID card in the USA. Don't get me wrong, I realize the need for ID's to protect against bum checks and deny access to unauthorized people. What I'm saying is that each orgainization that perceives a need for ID should issue its OWN id (OK - I have no trouble with a group of banks getting together and issuing their own check guarantee cards - they do that right now with EFT cards - we have The Treasurer and MAC here in Northern New Jersey) and the government should stay out of the ID business (with two exceptions 1) the government may have to issue ID cards to its own employees (this includes military and civillians), just like any employer does, and 2) the government is the logical agency to issue passports, which are ID documents as well as proof of citizenship - but passports should only be required to enter the USA from abroad (as well as entering foreign nations). end of exceptions). As I've said before, driver's licenses should serve only one function, namely stating that the person described in same is qualified to operate a motor vehicle of the class covered by the license. Due to various physical limitations, I can't (and don't) drive, ERGO, I don't have a driver's license. All this fact means is that I am not qualified to operate a motor vehicle (a fact I'll certainly agree with). It says absolutely NOTHING about my checking account balance, credit rating, citizenship (USA, for the record), education, employment status, phase of the moon, the price of eggs, or anything else. Regards, Bill Mitchell (whuxl!wjm) reply by electronic mail to the above address, but send flames to /dev/null
bprice@bmcg.UUCP (08/20/84)
Over the weeks that this conversation has been going on, I have yet to see
anyone point out that, right here in the good old U S of A, the Supreme Court
of the land has held it to be proper use of the police power of the State, to
'detain' anyone who does not produce sufficient identification, at the demand
of a 'peace officer.'
Not only that, but I'm old enough to remember what my draft card said on
it--that it must be kept on my person, and shown, on demand, to duly
constituted authorities, like the government policeman.
The moral--don't be fooled by all the statist propaganda you hear. The USA is
not as free as we know it should be.
--
--Bill Price uucp: {decvax!ucbvax philabs}!sdcsvax!bmcg!bprice
arpa:? sdcsvax!bmcg!bprice@noscjdb@qubix.UUCP (Jeff Bulf) (08/20/84)
> From: faustus@ucbvax.UUCP (Wayne Christopher) > > That's not quite true -- the only places that you have to > register with the police when you enter a city are Communist > countries (the USSR for sure, and I'm not sure which others). I don't know what Wayne is basing his information on. Maybe something I don't know about. When I lived in W Germany in Summer 1965, I had to register with the police of the town I was in. Interestingly, Wayne has given us a test by which Nicaragua is NOT communist. I travelled far and wide there in summer 1980 without ever having to register anywhere with anybody for anything. Most people looked at me like I was crazy for even asking whether I needed to. The only exception was was in Matagalpa, which was undergoing terrorist attacks from the remnants of Somoza's army, operating out of Honduras. The local authorities in Matagalpa checked my id, after which I was free to roam there like anywhere else. -- Dr Memory ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!jdb
ags@pucc-i (Seaman) (08/22/84)
> Over the weeks that this conversation has been going on, I have yet to see > anyone point out that, right here in the good old U S of A, the Supreme Court > of the land has held it to be proper use of the police power of the State, to > 'detain' anyone who does not produce sufficient identification, at the demand > of a 'peace officer.' The police cannot arbitrarily ask people for identification and "detain" them if they fail to produce it. This practice was challenged by a man in California a year or two ago, who made a habit of travelling on foot. He was somewhat unconventional in appearance, and therefore was constantly being hasselled by the police. He refused to produce identification when he was asked (pointing out that he was not being charged with anything) and his claim stood when he was taken to court. The police have to leave him alone unless they have probable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed. -- [This is my bugkiller line. It may appear to be misplaced, but it works.] Dave Seaman My hovercraft is no longer full of ..!pur-ee!pucc-i:ags eels (thanks to my confused cat).
ljdickey@watmath.UUCP (Lee Dickey) (08/29/84)
> That's not quite true -- the only places that you have to > register with the police when you enter a city are Communist > countries (the USSR for sure, and I'm not sure which others). I think this is not quite correct. There a lot of things that are difficult and irritating about travel in the USSR, but it is not my experience that one has to register with the police.
mat@hou4b.UUCP (08/29/84)
> Over the weeks that this conversation has been going on, I have > yet to see anyone point out that, right here in the good old U S of A, > the Supreme Court of the land has held it to be proper use of the > police power of the State, to 'detain' anyone who does not produce > sufficient identification, at the demand of a 'peace officer.' > Not only that, but I'm old enough to remember what my draft card said > on it--that it must be kept on my person, and shown, on demand, to > duly constituted authorities, like the government policeman. But don't the courts hold that there must be a reason for the demand? If you are asked to produce ID when the police are investigating a bona fide ``disturbance'', it is so that you can be found later if that is needed. If it isn't possible to find someone who may have knowledge needed to enforce the laws that we do need, what are the laws worth. There is an implication that you have a duty to be able to let someone find you if necessary. There is no implication of guilt here ... only a need to discharge a responsibility. If you wish to argue that responsibility, that is another matter. Mark Terribile hou4b!mat -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) hou5d!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*. (soon hou4b!mat)
dsn@umcp-cs.UUCP (Dana S. Nau) (09/02/84)
> Not only that, but I'm old enough to remember what my draft card said > on it--that it must be kept on my person, and shown, on demand, to > duly constituted authorities, like the government policeman. Not so! I quote from the back of my old draft card: The law requires you to have this certificate in your personal possession at all times and to surrender it upon entering active duty in the Armed Forces. ... "In your possession" does not mean "on your person" (I checked about that once). I didn't like the draft either (at one time, I filed conscientious objector papers)--but please get your facts straight before flaming about it. -- Dana S. Nau CSNet: dsn@umcp-cs ARPA: dsn@maryland UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!dsn