jefff@cadovax.UUCP (Jeff Fields) (10/12/84)
Yehoyaqim Martillo writes: >In Israel it is always possible to find 1/2 million ignorant, crude, low >common and vulgar VusVusim (European Jews) to demonstrate for any >mindless leftist goal. If Israel had been assured of US military and >financial aid, West Beirut could have been annihilated within a couple >of days and Lebanon could have been cleansed of Muslim barbarism within >a week afterwards at which point a West-leaning puppet state under >Maronite domination could have been set up. The United States refused >to go along and stupidly involved itself in the quagmire losing many >soldiers and practically handed Lebanon over to Assad's pillaging. If Nazi-Germany had been assured of US military and financial aid, Western Europe could have been annihilated within a couple of weeks and the modern world could have been cleansed of Jewish babrabism within a month afterwards at which point a fascist-leaning puppet state under Nazi domination could have been set up. :-) Mr. Martillo where is your smiley? Did you forget it, or are you seriously in favor of genocide? >The most bigoted regressive segment of the population composes the >so-called peace movement in Israel. Hundred's of innocent women and children were massacred at the Palestinian settlement in Beirut. Add to that the other thousands slaughtered by Israeli and Lebanese militias and it is no wonder that some Isreali citizens are demonstrating for the fair treatment of the Islamic population of the Middle East. Actually, the most bigotted and regressive segment of the population are the ex-terrorists in the Israeli government who continue to pursue the dangerous expansionistic policies of Zionism. >I have no objection to making peace with the Muslims but first Muslims >somewhere must show some tiny shred of evidence of willingness to live >on terms of mutal respect and equality with non-Muslims, and Muslim >political and religious leaders must concede that Muslims owe >non-Muslims for centuries of mistreatment. Need I mention Sadat, who was brutally assasinated for showing "some tiny shred of evidence of willingness to live on terms of mutual respect and equality with non-Muslims"? Actually, he showed a great deal of tolerance when he negotiated with Begin. Actually it is the Christians who have most brutalized the Jewish race. This, of course, is a generalization. Not all Christians are anti-semitic. Not all followers of Islam are anti-semitic. Not all Jews are anti-islamic. The Israelis have the responsibility of returning the Golan Heights to the Syrians, the West Bank to the Palestinians, and the Gaza Strip to the Egyptians. In the interim, while all this is negotiated, the Israelis if they want to be called democratic, must address the issue of human rights for the Palestinians residing in the occupied territories. The leaders of the Islamic nations surrounding Isreal have the responsibility of recognizing the nation of Israel and working to achieve peace in the region. So, who goes first? Someone has to start. Now that Shimon Peres is Prime Minister, there is a good chance that we may see peace in our time. Already he has made overtures to King Hussein of Jordan. Let us all pray to Jehovah/God/Allah so that all people can flourish on this earth in peace and harmony. Jeff Fields -- Pax Vobiscum.
myers@uwvax.UUCP (Jeff Myers) (10/13/84)
> > >The most bigoted regressive segment of the population composes the > >so-called peace movement in Israel. > Funny, some of the most intelligent, open-minded, and progressive people I know are Jews in the peace movement.
myers@uwvax.UUCP (Jeff Myers) (10/16/84)
> > > >> >The most bigoted regressive segment of the population composes the > >> >so-called peace movement in Israel. > > >Funny, some of the most intelligent, open-minded, and progressive people I > >know are Jews in the peace movement. > > Just shows your immense ignorance of Israel. Who was talking about Israel? I'm talking about Jews in Madison, WI. Your later caricature of all Muslims as ex-masters trying to regain their mastery was *rather* insulting to this "Western intellectual". Has about as much merit as lumping all Jews together, or lumping all Jewish peace activists together.
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (10/17/84)
> > The Israelis have the responsibility of returning the Golan Heights to > the Syrians, the West Bank to the Palestinians, and the Gaza Strip to > the Egyptians. Every now and then, I read a statement like this. It is always a mystery to me how anybody can rationally claim this sort of thing. The Israelis WON, dammit! They have no obligation or duty to "return" captured territory to any defeated enemies. They can do what they damn well please with any territory they can hold by force of arms. If they want to withdraw from occupied territory and cede it back to the state which held it prior to the war(s), they can. That is up to them. It is NOT up to us to tell them to do this. Wanting the situation to be restored to what it was like before the wars were fought is a symptom of the modern attitude that no one should suffer for their mistakes. It is like this was some sort of game being played for money with the understanding that, after the game ends, everybody gets their original money back. Nobody loses. War is not like that. The Arab states that fought Israel made a mistake. It is right and proper that they suffer for making those mistakes. Will Martin
steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) (10/18/84)
> [The Israelis] can do what they damn well please with any territory they > can hold by force of arms. HEY! So it's alright for the Soviet Union to stay in Afghanistan after all!
jaap@haring.UUCP (10/19/84)
> [The Israelis] can do what they damn well please with any territory they > can hold by force of arms. Very stupid of the US to get out of Germany, they just could have hold it in 1945.
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (10/21/84)
>> [The Israelis] can do what they damn well please with any territory they >> can hold by force of arms. >Very stupid of the US to get out of Germany, they just could have hold >it in 1945. Personally, I think the Morgenthau plan (deindustrialization of Germany) would have been too lenient. As I remember, the Russians did strip East Germany of much of its industrial capacity, take a lot East Germans east as slave laborers and still maintain an occupation force. Somehow the mindless (West) European leftist notion of the equivalence of USSR and USA policy seems to have no relation to reality. Not that I would mind if the USA had treated W. Germany as the USSR treated E. Germany.
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (10/21/84)
>> [The Israelis] can do what they damn well please with any territory they >> can hold by force of arms. >HEY! So it's alright for the Soviet Union to stay in Afghanistan after all! Since Muslim sovereignty anywhere is illegitimate, why not? Actually, since the Soviets are contemptible, supporting the mujahadin so that there can be mutual slaughter is preferable.
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (10/23/84)
Martillo seems to have a capacity for hate that transends anything his religion tells him. To advocate a scorched earth policy for West Germany, the enslavement of its population, and the leveling of its industry only tells me that Martillo needs to see a head shrinker to get the bugs out of his thinking. T. C. Wheeler
jtc78@ihuxm.UUCP (Mike Cherepov) (10/23/84)
> >>HEY! So it's alright for the Soviet Union to stay in Afghanistan after all! > > Since Muslim sovereignty anywhere is illegitimate, why not? > > Actually, since the Soviets are contemptible, supporting the mujahadin > so that there can be mutual slaughter is preferable. I would not applaud killings of people sent to death by their contemptible leaders. Neither would I applaud killings of people because thier ancestors established sovereignity that is questionably legitimate. In general I disapprove of killing of a person for somebody else's sins, which is what a wholesale slaughter is all about. But obviously Mr. Martillo was joking. Mike Cherepov ~
faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (10/24/84)
> > >> [The Israelis] can do what they damn well please with any territory they > >> can hold by force of arms. > > >HEY! So it's alright for the Soviet Union to stay in Afghanistan after all! > > Since Muslim sovereignty anywhere is illegitimate, why not? > > Actually, since the Soviets are contemptible, supporting the mujahadin > so that there can be mutual slaughter is preferable. I've read several of your attacks on Moslems recently, but this one really goes too far. You are exhibiting the worst of Zionism -- a blind hatred of an entire religon, just the sort of thing that Jews had to fight for several thousand years of their existence. Maybe it's a natural reaction of a people who have been as oppressed as the Jews, but this sort of attitude makes comparisons between some elements of Zionism today (like you and Rabbi Kahane) and the Nazis seem not so far fetched. Wayne
martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) (10/29/84)
>> >> [The Israelis] can do what they damn well please with any territory they >> >> can hold by force of arms. >> >> >HEY! So it's alright for the Soviet Union to stay in Afghanistan after all! >> Since Muslim sovereignty anywhere is illegitimate, why not? >> >> Actually, since the Soviets are contemptible, supporting the mujahadin >> so that there can be mutual slaughter is preferable. > >I've read several of your attacks on Moslems recently, but this one really >goes too far. You are exhibiting the worst of Zionism -- a blind hatred >of an entire religon, just the sort of thing that Jews had to fight for >several thousand years of their existence. Maybe it's a natural reaction >of a people who have been as oppressed as the Jews, but this sort of >attitude makes comparisons between some elements of Zionism today (like >you and Rabbi Kahane) and the Nazis seem not so far fetched. I happen to be of the opinion that voting in an Israeli election may be forbidden mide'oraita (forbidden by explicit biblical command). I am extremely anti-European Zionism which I consider to have picked up some very evil Western ideas. My detestation of Islam is not blind. My family lived under Islamic rule until the fifties. We would oppose the existence of Muslim countries even if there had never been a state of Israel. I am familiar with the texts of Islam. I read Arabic and keep up with events in Muslim countries. By the standards with which the Enlightenment attacked Christianity, Islam is 1000 times worse. The wrongness of Christian vilification of Judaism hardly implies that other religions have no flaws. I consider the devotion of 5/8 of Islamic jurisprudence to the degradation and humiliation of non-Muslims a very serious flaw which needs to be condemned in the most violent terms possible especially because no `alim (Islamic scholar) is willing to concede that this emphasis might be some sort of tiny failing. I do not favor the expulsion of the Muslims from Israel. At the very least their presence might discourage the use of atomics against Israel. I do think they should not vote in Israeli elections. I favor negotiation with the PLO because I see no reason to distinguish between the cut-throats in the PLO and the cut-throats in the Syrian government (or any other Islamic government for that matter).
roy@eisx.UUCP (Steve Rojak) (11/02/84)
|Very stupid of the US to get out of Germany, they just could have hold[sic] |it in 1945. If you want a real shocker, we could have done better than that, from a power point of view. Germany actually surrendered to the West about a week before she surrendered to the Russians. We could have very easily used the Wehrmacht against the SU. At least it would have been easy as far as getting the Germans to cooperate; whether our own country would have stood for it is another matter. But there has been something out-to-lunch about our foreign policy since 1910. We accuse the Russians of double-dealing and reneging on treaties. Every nation-state with any sense does this. But we want the world to like us, or what? They don't anyway. The purpose of a foreign policy is to carry out the ends of the nation. These are necessary acquisitive and detrimental to the ends of some of the other nations. We have been historically been more interested in maintaining the status quo at home than in making over the world so that we all had greater opportunity. Flame away, folks. eisx!roy