mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (11/18/84)
=============
I could spend a lot of time criticizing the Dutch government and such
things as legalized prostitution and drugs in the Netherlands, but I
think that this sort of discussion has no place on an international
network, and I hope I don't see any more of it.
Wayne
=============
Why would you criticize the Dutch for their sensible approach to
personal liberty?
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt
{uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsrgv!dciem!mmtken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (11/19/84)
-- >> ============= >> I could spend a lot of time criticizing the Dutch government and such >> things as legalized prostitution and drugs in the Netherlands, but I >> think that this sort of discussion has no place on an international >> network, and I hope I don't see any more of it. >> >> Wayne >> ============= >> Why would you criticize the Dutch for their sensible approach to >> personal liberty? >> -- >> >> Martin Taylor And why *doesn't* such a discussion belong on an international network? Seems like the ideal place to me. As does Holland, by the way. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 19 Nov 84 [29 Brumaire An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
biep@klipper.UUCP (J. A. "Biep" Durieux) (11/26/84)
>>>> I could spend a lot of time criticizing the Dutch government and such >>>> things as legalized prostitution and drugs in the Netherlands, but I >>>> think that this sort of discussion has no place on an international >>>> network, and I hope I don't see any more of it. >>>> >>>> Wayne >>> Why would you criticize the Dutch for their sensible approach to >>> personal liberty? >>> >>> Martin Taylor >And why *doesn't* such a discussion belong on an international network? >Seems like the ideal place to me. As does Holland, by the way. > >ken perlow But who invented the story that drugs and/or prostitution are or have ever been legal in the Netherlands? Drugs (besides coffee, tabac and alco- hol) simply are illegal, prostitution is forbidden, not only the prostitu- tes c.s. are trespassing, any city, town or village allowing prostitutes to do their job is trespassing too. -- Biep. {seismo|decvax|philabs}!mcvax!vu44!botter!klipper!biep I utterly disagree with everything you are saying, but I am prepared to fight myself to death for your right to say it. --Voltaire
pollack@uicsl.UUCP (11/28/84)
> But who invented the story that drugs and/or prostitution are or have > ever been legal in the Netherlands? CBS's "60 Minutes" did a piece called "Dutch Treat", in which they examined the folly of "socialism". They showed government sponsored art languishing in warehouses, youth "clubs" which sell marijuana and hash, a school for lesbian merchant marines, free medical care, lots of people retired on full pensions for fictitious back trouble, resident aliens collecting benefits and sending the money out of the country, etc. etc. Socialism just doesn't have a good name in America anymore :-), and I'm afraid the Netherlands is getting bad press. Jordan P.S. Regarding Piet's original "black day" article -- Its true, but not new. My country has been responsible for untold death and destruction of non-whites/non-christians since its inception. The goal is to build a future we do not have to be ashamed of. Carter started it, and it will take another century to happen, if we all last that long.... Can't 'Mercans be proud of putting a man on the moon while half the earth was starving? :-) I think we can be proud that Americans designed the Macintosh. > I utterly disagree with everything you are saying, but I am > prepared to fight myself to death for your right to say it. > --Voltaire Great quote!
faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (11/28/84)
> But who invented the story that drugs and/or prostitution are or have > ever been legal in the Netherlands? Drugs (besides coffee, tabac and alco- > hol) simply are illegal, prostitution is forbidden, not only the prostitu- > tes c.s. are trespassing, any city, town or village allowing prostitutes > to do their job is trespassing too. Hmm... Well, when I was in Amsterdam, I saw some pretty obvoius cases of prostitution (scantily clad women sitting in windows with red lights in them), and drug sales openly taking place in clubs such as the Milky Way. I also heard about this earlier on 60 Minutes, where they stated that some drugs such as hashish are legal and government-regulated, as is prostitution. Unless you can provide some documentary evidence to the contrary I won't be convinced... Wayne
butch@drutx.UUCP (FreemanS) (11/30/84)
Wayne you could go to any blue light district in this country and
see scantily clad prostitutes and drugs being openly sold on the
streets. Surprised?
S. Freemansteven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) (12/03/84)
In article <2825@ucbcad.UUCP> faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (Wayne) writes: > When I was in Amsterdam, I saw some pretty obvoius cases of prostitution > (scantily clad women sitting in windows with red lights in them), and drug > sales openly taking place in clubs such as the Milky Way. Well, you'll see this the world over, but it doesn't make it legal. People get killed in America. Is murder legal there? > I also heard about this earlier on 60 Minutes, where they stated that some > drugs such as hashish are legal ... Well, they were wrong, and tell you what, if you want proof, why not come over here and try and sell some to a police-man :-) Steven Pemberton, Amsterdam.
steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) (12/03/84)
In article <28100020@uicsl.UUCP> pollack@uicsl.UUCP writes: > CBS's "60 Minutes" did a piece called "Dutch Treat", in which they examined > the folly of "socialism". They showed [...lots of DREADFUL things deleted...] > free medical care, ... Well, to my knowledge, Holland doesn't have free medical care, alas. But what on earth is wrong with it? A whole nation being healthy without worrying how they're going to pay for it? Terrible! As an acquaintance of mine, an English brain-surgeon, said "any system where doctors have an interest in people being ill, isn't in those people's interest". Too right. Part of my definition of civilisation is free health care (another part is unarmed police). Steven Pemberton, CWI, Amsterdam; steven@mcvax
biep@klipper.UUCP (J. A. "Biep" Durieux) (12/03/84)
>> But who invented the story that drugs and/or prostitution are or have >> ever been legal in the Netherlands? > >CBS's "60 Minutes" did a piece called "Dutch Treat", in which they >examined the folly of "socialism". They showed government sponsored >art languishing in warehouses, youth "clubs" which sell marijuana and hash, >a school for lesbian merchant marines, free medical care, lots >of people retired on full pensions for fictitious back trouble, >resident aliens collecting benefits and sending the money out >of the country, etc. etc. > >Socialism just doesn't have a good name in America anymore :-), and >I'm afraid the Netherlands is getting bad press. But the Dutch Government isn't socialistic! The Dutch word "liberaal" means about the exact opposite of socialistic. And I wished medicare were free... I'm not saying nobody breaks the laws, but that doesn't mean that things are legal! As I mailed to Wayne: I guess I might conclude that pocket picking during the night is legal in New York? >> I utterly disagree with everything you are saying, but I am >> prepared to fight myself to death for your right to say it. >> --Voltaire > >Great quote! Thank you. Do you know where to find the original? I once read it, but I've forgotten in which of his writings. I would like to check my trans- lation to the original in stead of to my memory. BTW, someone wrote me I should say "fight to the death", since now it seems that V. wants to commit suicide. Is that so? (This by mail please!) >Jordan -- Biep. {seismo|decvax|philabs}!mcvax!vu44!botter!klipper!biep I utterly disagree with everything you are saying, but I am prepared to fight myself to death for your right to say it. --Voltaire
plunkett@rlgvax.UUCP (S. Plunkett) (12/03/84)
From The Netherlands comes this: > Well, to my knowledge, Holland doesn't have free medical care, alas. But > what on earth is wrong with it? A whole nation being healthy without > worrying how they're going to pay for it? Terrible! When Holland figures out how to provide free medical care, perhaps it would generalize the formula and look after the rest of the free world as well. Then we could all be healthy! What on earth could be wrong with that?
gjk@talcott.UUCP (Greg J Kuperberg) (12/07/84)
> In article <28100020@uicsl.UUCP> pollack@uicsl.UUCP writes: > > CBS's "60 Minutes" did a piece called "Dutch Treat", in which they examined >>the folly of "socialism". They showed [...lots of DREADFUL things deleted...] > > free medical care, ... > > Well, to my knowledge, Holland doesn't have free medical care, alas. But > what on earth is wrong with it? A whole nation being healthy without > worrying how they're going to pay for it? ... > Steven Pemberton, CWI, Amsterdam; steven@mcvax Of course there's nothing wrong with it. No one has to pay for it. The money appears out of thin air, and revitalizes the economy, which is an added benifit of free medical care. Next thing you know, they'll be demanding free housing, free cars, free TV sets, free space shuttles... --- Greg Kuperberg harvard!talcott!gjk "Madam, there is only one important question facing us, and that is the question whether the white race will survive." -Leonid Breshnev, speaking to Margaret Thatcher.
steven@mcvax.UUCP (Steven Pemberton) (12/09/84)
In article <172@talcott.UUCP> gjk@talcott.UUCP (Greg J Kuperberg) writes: > Next thing you know, they'll be demanding free housing, free cars, free TV > sets, free space shuttles... ..., free education, free use of roads and pavements (=sidewalks in US), free use of parks, libraries, police force, fire service, free nuclear defence, ... Steven Pemberton, CWI, Amsterdam; steven@mcvax
gadfly@ihu1m.UUCP (Gadfly) (12/10/84)
-- >> Why is it [prostitution] tolerated? The Dutch cannot control >> that their people obey laws? Sounds more like you've *accepted* >> prostitution and that I regard as morally very questionable... Enough of this Dutch-trashing. Remember that during the Nazi occupation many Dutch risked their lives to help Jews escape or hide. During the '73 oil embargo, the Dutch, with no oil resources of their own, put up with a total cut-off of crude rather than renounce their close ties with Israel. (In the US, with substantial oil reserves, there was all of a sudden a lot of "We want oil--not Jews" graffiti.) Are these signs of moral weakness? How dare you folks condemn the moral fiber of the Dutch! -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 10 Dec 84 [20 Frimaire An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (12/12/84)
> Enough of this Dutch-trashing. Remember that during the Nazi > occupation many Dutch risked their lives to help Jews escape or > hide. During the '73 oil embargo, the Dutch, with no oil resources > of their own, put up with a total cut-off of crude rather than > renounce their close ties with Israel. (In the US, with substantial > oil reserves, there was all of a sudden a lot of "We want oil--not > Jews" graffiti.) Are these signs of moral weakness? How dare you > folks condemn the moral fiber of the Dutch! Nobody is condemning anyone. The origonal criticism of Dutch prostitution and drug use was only made to show how inappropriate the anti-American attitude of one Dutch poster was. If other people think that there are important issues of Dutch society to discuss, I hope that they will create net.dutch and try to discuss them in a rational manner. I have a lot of admiration for the Netherlands myself, and only regret that some people on both sides of the Atlantic can get so caught up in nationalistic self-righteousness that they lose sight of all the good things we could be discussing about both the US and the Netherlands... Wayne
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (12/15/84)
>Nobody is condemning anyone. The origonal criticism of Dutch prostitution >and drug use was only made to show how inappropriate the anti-American >attitude of one Dutch poster was. If other people think that there are >important issues of Dutch society to discuss, I hope that they will create >net.dutch and try to discuss them in a rational manner. I have a lot >of admiration for the Netherlands myself, and only regret that some >people on both sides of the Atlantic can get so caught up in nationalistic >self-righteousness that they lose sight of all the good things we could >be discussing about both the US and the Netherlands... > > Wayne It's not, and never was, clear how criticism of the Dutch attitude toward civil liberty showed "how inappropriate the anti-American attitude of one Dutch poster was. My interpretation of Piet's postings is that he is disappointed in the behaviour of the country that should be and has been the shining example for the world. At least, that's the way I feel, and I agree with the point -- if not the tone -- of most of Piet's postings. Yes, there are far more good things here (generic Western World) than bad. We should be discussing where they are in danger. But the bad things also exist, and it is more useful and more natural to try to right those bad things. Remember: one does not criticize what is beyond hope of correction, unless one is a sincere masochist. Many of us have been flamed on the net as anti-American (not usually by name), when in fact we are strongly pro-American but would like to see America behaving according to its professed ideals. We DON'T want to see the US converge with the USSR in its dealings with the world. What's the point of criticizing the USSR in a forum that doesn't reach kremvax? Even if they did listen, would they care what we said? (Does anyone?). If you can't take well-intentioned, if strong, criticism from your best friends, who can serve as your mirror? -- Martin Taylor {allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt {uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsrgv!dciem!mmt