dkmck@cbosgd.UUCP (Daniel Kian McKiernan) (01/18/85)
The following is a re-posting. The first posting vanished mysteriously.
[Actually from Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]
Alright Sevener, see if you can stay awake:
1) As Mr Cipriani pointed out (while you were in an intellectual stupor), he
was posting for an economist friend. More specifically, he was posting for ME
(I have since gained access to the net via my father). He initially got me
involved because you kept abusing economic theory on the net. It boggles the
mind that people like you, who at best have the equivalent of a couple of
courses in econ, are so smug as to lecture on the subject. If you only had the
first year of calculus would you be such an ass as to pontificate in net.math?
Take some courses on industrial organization and labor-ec before you have the
audacity to speak of oligopoly, unions, &c; you're not one of those who are
gifted with economic insight, you'll have to learn from others. And: No, I
don't goddamn intend to spend my time teaching you economics. I will limit
myself to responding specifically to whatever asinine thing gets typed on your
keyboard when you tread on my turf.
2) The idea that, under ideal circumstances, the state would wither away did
not find its origin in Marxism.
3) It is also NOT what I was talking about. You're reading what you WISH I
had said, rather than what I ACTUALLY said. Let's try this again:
a) If political power were wrested from the hands of the elite, AND NOT
GIVEN TO ANYONE ELSE, a new power-structure might eventually arise,
but there would in the meantime be a period of liberty, and, even if
temporary, such a period is desirable to the Libertarian.
b) Just as overt cannibalism has been eliminated by the development of
socio-philosophical structures, the lust for political power on the
part of some, and the will to servitude on the part of others, can be
eliminated if the philosophical foundation of our culture is made
more rational. This does not happen magically, it happens when a few
people with an absolute dedication to reason and an unstoppable sense
of purpose give their all to make the world right.
You can go f*** your straw-man.
4) Try to learn the distinction between capitalism and fascism (it's not too
much for your mind to grasp); you keep summoning up examples of the performance
of a mixed economy as if you were discussing laissez-faire capitalism.
5) When we economists talk about an "invisible hand", we are not discussing
magic. As you would know if you had one-fiftieth of the knowledge of econ that
you pretend to, Adam Smith said that the free economy performed AS IF guided by
an invisible hand, not BECAUSE it was guided by an invisible hand. It is in
fact guided by the PRICE SYSTEM. Before you spout off about the price system,
learn something about the concept; I suggest that you read *Knowledge and
Decisions* by Thomas Sowell. It is well suited to the reader with little or no
understanding of economics.
6) It is political rather than market mechanisms which have given those that
you call "the lucky few" such power. You mention the example of TV (again
referring to a fascist phenomenon as if it were a capitalist phenomenon). Go
look up "The Federal Communications Commission" by Ronald H Coase (a name that
you would recognize and respect if you were an economist) in *Journal of Law
and Economics* October 59. You'll learn that:
a) before the federal government intervened, courts applied common-law
principles of homesteading to questions of ownership of the right to
broadcast; thus a free-market mechanism existed to allocate
broadcast-rights.
b) the federal government intervened NOT to bring order out of chaos
(the situation was, in fact, not chaotic) and NOT to guarrantee the
airing of minority view-points, but, in fact, to PRECLUDE the
ownership of stations by small broadcasters and to PREVENT the airing
of minority view-points.
There are only 4 major TV broadcast networks. Wanna know why? It's FCC policy
and FCC regulations are structured to prevent the market from producing any
more (sometimes the FCC even explicitly admits as much). Oligopoly, sure; but
not capitalist oligopoly, fascist oligopoly.
7) Where did the elite get the power to over-ride the market with government
intervention? Bribery? Sure, there was some of that. But mostly they
packaged their schemes as REFORM, and people just like YOU voted for it, or for
the scum who voted for it in congress. Read *The Triumph of Conservatism* by
Kolko, or go find a good history of the Federal Reserve System and look up
Jeckel Island in the index.
8) Finally, you (like Kolodney) need to do a great deal more thinking about
the concept of POWER. For example: The ability to present a well-reasoned
argument is a form of power. And the person possessing this power can do
AWESOME things. He (or She) can cause people to become silent, or to speak of
things that they would not have previously spoken of. He can cause people to
leave their church, and to practice a different religion. He can cause them to
part with all of their wordly goods. He can cause them to part with their
lives. Does this mean that a person possessing such power should be subject to
government regulation, perhaps even to have the power wrested from him? Some
people probably think so! But if you do not, then you must (implicitly or
explicitly) realize that:
a) different types of power have different ethical status;
and b) the mere fact that a form of power has the ability to greatly affect
those to whom it is applied does not make that power evil or subject
to government control.
Market power can also be awesome, and (while not nearly to the degree that we
find in a mixed or fascist economy) there may be some examples of that power
being concentrated in a capitalist economy. This does not mean that capitalism
has generated something evil. The power to trade, like the power to reason,
does not fall into the same category as the power to steal, to rape, or to
kill. While I have various gripes about Ayn Rand, her book *Atlas Shrugged*
(amongst other things) makes this point beautifully.
Disgusted,
Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan
9120 Hawthorn Pt
Westerville, OH 43081-9605myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Jeff Myers) (01/20/85)
> > 6) It is political rather than market mechanisms which have given those that > you call "the lucky few" such power. > Hm. In the sense that all human activity is political. Money IS condensed power in societies which use it. For a recent neo-Weberian outlook on the concept of power in the US, check out JK Galbraith's new book. > > Disgusted, > Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan Try to mellow out a bit in future postings, Dan. -- Jeff Myers, the ex-Ohioan The views above may or may not University of Wisconsin-Madison reflect the views of any other Madison Academic Computing Center person or group at UW-Madison. ARPA: uwmacc!myers@wisc-rsch.arpa uucp: ..!{ucbvax,allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!myers
orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) (01/22/85)
My response to Mr. Daniel Kian McKiernan: > > [Actually from Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan] > Take some courses on industrial organization and labor-ec before you have the > audacity to speak of oligopoly, unions, &c; you're not one of those who are > gifted with economic insight, you'll have to learn from others. And: No, I > don't goddamn intend to spend my time teaching you economics. I will limit > myself to responding specifically to whatever asinine thing gets typed on your > keyboard when you tread on my turf. > > people with an absolute dedication to reason and an unstoppable sense > of purpose give their all to make the world right. > You can go f*** your straw-man. > > > 7) Where did the elite get the power to over-ride the market with government > intervention? Bribery? Sure, there was some of that. But mostly they > packaged their schemes as REFORM, and people just like YOU voted for it, or for > the scum who voted for it in congress. Read *The Triumph of Conservatism* by > Kolko, or go find a good history of the Federal Reserve System and look up > Jeckel Island in the index. > > and b) the mere fact that a form of power has the ability to greatly affect > those to whom it is applied does not make that power evil or subject > to government control. > Market power can also be awesome, and (while not nearly to the degree that we > find in a mixed or fascist economy) there may be some examples of that power > being concentrated in a capitalist economy. This does not mean that capitalism > has generated something evil. The power to trade, like the power to reason, > does not fall into the same category as the power to steal, to rape, or to > kill. While I have various gripes about Ayn Rand, her book *Atlas Shrugged* > (amongst other things) makes this point beautifully. > > Disgusted, > Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan > 9120 Hawthorn Pt > Westerville, OH 43081-9605 I am glad you are able to reason so clearly and unemotionally. The world will certainly be a better place when it is ruled by such magnificent displays of reasons. tim sevener whuxl!orb