berman@ihopb.UUCP (Rational Chutzpah) (01/21/85)
In a rather odd attempt to justify the inhumane policies of the Reagan Administration, Greg Kuperberg drags up a few popular myths. First he casts the old "holier than thou"phoney patriotism by implying that criticism of the Reagan regime is a comdemnation of the United States itself. How many times must we go through this cheap shot Greg? The fact is that the policies of the Reagan administration in Central America as well as domestically betray the best interests of the people of the United States. Patriotism is cheapened when it's used to justify the current regime. A truer patriotism is one that tries to set the policies of one's government back on a pather of committment to just and human values from which the current regime has strayed. Next he drags up the case of Cambodia: >1) War deaths in Cambodia in the past ten years (largely due to war with >Soviet-backed Vietnam): > Greg Kuperberg The insanities in Cambodia in the post 1975 years can be directly traced to the massive destruction wrought upon that society by 7 Billion dollars worth of Bombardment of that country by the Nixon regime. The killing ended when Vietnam moved in and helped throw out the Khmer Rouge. However history judges Vietnam's move in Kampuchea, it cannot ignore fact that the killing ended. . The exception is the area along the Thai border where remenents of the Khmer Rouge along with rightist elements continue skirmishes based on arms supplies from the CIA and China. Andy Berman -- -------------------------------------------------- "My life is so complicated, it's a good thing I'm such a simple person that I can understand it" -Ed Balchowski
gjk@talcott.UUCP (Greg Kuperberg) (01/23/85)
> In a rather odd attempt to justify the inhumane policies of the Reagan > Administration, Greg Kuperberg drags up a few popular myths. Justify what? I wasn't trying to justify anything that Reagan has done. I was merely replying to your implicit comparison between the Soviet Union and "Ronald Reagan land". Here, again, is an excerpt from your article: > We get enough self-righteous mouthings on this net about > the "evil empire," so here's some cheerful news about the > respect for religion and human beings in Ronald Reagan Land: I am still offended by your calling my postings self-righteous mouthings. The Soviet Union *is* an evil empire. This point is stressed too often by fundamentalists with respect to the nuclear arms race, where it is not as relevant, and not often enough with respect to other foreign policy. > First he casts the old "holier than thou"phoney patriotism by implying that > criticism of the Reagan regime is a comdemnation of the United States > itself. With or without Reagan, I much prefer the American Government to that of the Soviet Union. I appreciate your attempts at constructive criticism of the U.S. Government, but I think that discussions of the "evil empire" are also worthwhile. > How many times must we go through this cheap shot Greg? The fact is that > the policies of the Reagan administration in Central America as well as > domestically betray the best interests of the people of the United States. > Patriotism is cheapened when it's used to justify the current regime. Again, I'm not trying to justify the Reagan Administration. Please don't call my postings "cheap shots". > The insanities in Cambodia in the post 1975 years can be directly traced to > the massive destruction wrought upon that society by 7 Billion dollars worth > of Bombardment of that country by the Nixon regime. The killing ended when > Vietnam moved in and helped throw out the Khmer Rouge. However history > judges Vietnam's move in Kampuchea, it cannot ignore fact that the killing > ended. The exception is the area along the Thai border where remenents > of the Khmer Rouge along with rightist elements continue skirmishes based > on arms supplies from the CIA and China. > > Andy Berman I fail to understand your position. It is beyond me how you can condone the wholesale burning of Cambodian crops by the Vietnamese. Moreover, the killing has not stopped, it has slacked off. Cambodia has the second-fastest shrinking population in the world after Lebanon. Finally, I fail to see your causal connection between bombing Cambodia in 1970 and genocide and mass-famine in 1975-1978. Vietnam was bombed much more than Cambodia, and with less of the above effects. You do have one small point, though: China is indeed another terrible country, and my manners prevent me from saying what I really think of their backing of the Khmer Rouge. --- Greg Kuperberg harvard!talcott!gjk "Nice boy, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice." - Foghorn Leghorn
gjk@talcott.UUCP (Greg Kuperberg) (01/23/85)
> In a rather odd attempt to justify the inhumane policies of the Reagan > Administration, Greg Kuperberg drags up a few popular myths. Justify what? I didn't say anything at all about Reagan. No, you BHL, (I'll leave it to you to figure out what the initials mean) I was offended by your name-calling. Let me show you your posting: > We get enough self-righteous mouthings on this net about > the "evil empire," so here's some cheerful news about the > respect for religion and human beings in Ronald Reagan Land: You have just made an implicit comparison between Ronald Reagan Land and the Soviet Union. But the joke's on you: there is no comparison. Ask an Ethiopian what he thinks of his Soviet-backed regime. Ask him if he would rather be in El Salvador. > First he casts the old "holier than thou"phoney patriotism by implying that > criticism of the Reagan regime is a comdemnation of the United States > itself. Phoney patriotism? I would like to think that my patriotism is genuine. At least I know that you don't understand my patriotism, so there is indeed a chance that it's genuine rather than phoney. Anyway, I appreciate your intent of constructive criticism. However, even comparing the Reagan regime to the Chernenko one is a cruel exaggeration. It is like comparing you to a member of the Mafia. > The insanities in Cambodia in the post 1975 years can be directly traced to > the massive destruction wrought upon that society by 7 Billion dollars worth > of Bombardment of that country by the Nixon regime. Yeah, the Cambodian Holocaust was caused by Nixon. And the Nazi Holocaust was caused by Churchill, right? Just to inform the readers, here are the facts (source: The World Almanac, 1985): Prince Norodom Sihanouk, king 1941-1955 and head of state from 1960, tried to maintain neutrality. Relations with the U.S. were broken in 1965, after South Vietnam planes attacked Vietcong forces within Cambodia. Relations were restored in 1969, after Sihanouk charged Viet communists with arming Cambodian insurgents. In 1970, pro-U.S. premier Lon Nol seized power, demanding removal of 40,000 North Viet troops; the monarchy was abolished. Sihanouk formed a government-in-exile in Peking, and open war began between the government and Khmer Rouge. The U.S. provided heavy military and economic aid. U.S. troops fought Vietcong forces within Cambodia for 2 months in 1970. Khmer Rouge forces captured Phnom Penh April 17, 1975. Over 100,000 people had died in 5 years of fighting. The new government evacuated all cities and towns, and shuffled the rural population, sending virtually the entire population to clear jungle, forest, and scrub, which covered half the country. Over one million people were killed in executions and enforced hardships. Severe border fighting broke out with Vietnam in 1978; developed into a full-fledged Vietnamese invasion. The Vietnamese-backed Kampuchean National United Front for National Salvation, a Cambodian rebel movement, announced, Jan. 8, 1979, the formation of a government one day after the Vietnamese capture of Phnom Penh. Thousands of refugees flowed into Thailand. Widespread starvation was reported; by Sept., when the UN confirmed diplomatic recognition to the ousted Pol Pot government, international food assistance was allowed to aid the famine-stricken country. In July 1981, renewed efforts to bring about a Vietnamese troop withdrawal and institute supervised elections were pursued in a UN conference on Cambodia. But prospects for a diplomatic settlement were dimmed when Vietnam and the Soviet Union boycotted the proceedings. > The killing ended when > Vietnam moved in and helped throw out the Khmer Rouge. However history > judges Vietnam's move in Kampuchea, it cannot ignore fact that the killing > ended. The exception is the area along the > Thai border where remenents of the Khmer Rouge along with rightist elements > continue skirmishes based on arms supplies from the CIA and China. > > Andy Berman The US-backed Lon Nol regime tried to defend itself against the Khmer Rouge. Although 100,000 people were killed in five-year war, over one million were executed by Pol Pot in the next three years. When Vietnam came, the killing stopped, but the famine started, and a second million died. Did the Soviets send aid? No. Anyway, due to general hardships of holocausts, another million Cambodians died in 1975-1985, for a total of at least three million. But it's really ok, as long as the US is no longer involved, right? Note: This does *not* mean that I am pro-Reagan. I am, however, anti-Soviet. --- Greg Kuperberg harvard!talcott!gjk "Nice boy, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice." - Foghorn Leghorn