orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) (01/29/85)
> > But it isn't really ignored by the Libertarians, it is a central point of > > most of their arguments even though they refuse to admit it. The major > > thing most Libertarians seem to rail about is paying taxes. > > Bullsh*t! I rail about conscription! I rave about victimless crimes! I > shout about censorship! Pretty clever article (summed up as: Libertarians > only complain about taxes...taxes are only one loss of liberty...libertarians > don't really care about liberty), too bad you couldn't have made it 99999 lines > long; you would really have made a great point then. > > --Cliff [Matthews] > {purdue, cmcl2, ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!cliff > {csu-cs, pur-ee, convex, gatech, ucbvax}!unmvax!cliff > 4744 Trumbull S.E. - Albuquerque NM 87108 - (505) 265-9143 Perhaps I am wrong, but I have noticed a great concern with taxes as "theft" and so forth by Libertarians. I guess one reason that the right to tax has been important in my own arguments is that I agree with removing victimless crimes from the legal code, preventing censorship, and abolishing draft registration. But I cannot agree with arguments that there is no justification for taxation, or other such group fees as union dues. I also notice that your response totally ignores the major subtance of my arguments on taxation as some sort of "absolute infringement of freedom". Perhaps I am also ignoring the more purist ideology of Libertarians versus the use the power elite is likely to make of such ideology. While it is nice that some Libertarians on the net have admitted that not *all* property ownership is legitimate or worthy of defense that is a point that has only been conceded under my own questioning. It seems to me that Libertarians have not presented any means for removing current inequalities of wealth and control of property. Those people who own America just *love* an ideology which they can use to justify their own control of property and remove any governmental or other public impediments to their absolute control of such property. One need only look at Weber's "Protestant Ethic" to see how a doctrine which starts out as primarily religious or spiritual can quickly become subverted to justify a rising elite. Of course, I will concede that Marxism has been no different in being used to justify a group's claim to power. But it seems to me that Libertarians as a whole are quite naive. tim sevener whuxl!orb
fagin@ucbvax.ARPA (Barry Steven Fagin) (01/31/85)
> >Perhaps I am wrong, but I have noticed a great concern with taxes as >"theft" and so forth by Libertarians. I guess one reason that the >right to tax has been important in my own arguments is that I agree >with removing victimless crimes from the legal code, preventing censorship, >and abolishing draft registration. Sounds great so far ... >But I cannot agree with arguments that there is no justification for taxation, >or other such group fees as union dues. Ahh, how subtly it slips by. Almost escapes one's notice. Taxation is a "group fee"? Sure am glad to know I can cancel my membership at any time, and can seek redress in the courts if I get screwed. This is a perverted use of the phrase "group fee", and shows your reluctance to acknowledge the coercive nature of taxation. --Barry -- Barry Fagin @ University of California, Berkeley
faustus@ucbcad.UUCP (02/01/85)
> >But I cannot agree with arguments that there is no justification for taxation > >or other such group fees as union dues. > > Ahh, how subtly it slips by. Almost escapes one's notice. Taxation is a > "group fee"? Sure am glad to know I can cancel my membership at any time, > and can seek redress in the courts if I get screwed. > > This is a perverted use of the phrase "group fee", and shows your > reluctance to acknowledge the coercive nature of taxation. > > --Barry You CAN cancel your membership at any time. It's called "emigration". Wayne
gjk@talcott.UUCP (Greg Kuperberg) (02/02/85)
>> >> Ahh, how subtly it slips by. Almost escapes one's notice. Taxation is a >> "group fee"? Sure am glad to know I can cancel my membership at any time, >> and can seek redress in the courts if I get screwed. >> >> This is a perverted use of the phrase "group fee", and shows your >> reluctance to acknowledge the coercive nature of taxation. >> >> --Barry > > You CAN cancel your membership at any time. It's called "emigration". > > Wayne I prefer not to have only all-or-nothing choices. But since we're discussing such choices at the moment, I suggest another way to cancel your membership when emigration is not an option: suicide. --- Greg Kuperberg harvard!talcott!gjk "Nice boy, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice." - Foghorn Leghorn
baba@spar.UUCP (Baba ROM DOS) (02/04/85)
> Ahh, how subtly it slips by. Almost escapes one's notice. Taxation is a > "group fee"? Sure am glad to know I can cancel my membership at any time, > and can seek redress in the courts if I get screwed. Well, as far as I know, there are no laws against emmigration from the United States. What's the problem? Baba
cliff@unmvax.UUCP (02/07/85)
Since my name is up there, I might as well reply... > > Ahh, how subtly it slips by. Almost escapes one's notice. Taxation is a > > "group fee"? Sure am glad to know I can cancel my membership at any time, > > and can seek redress in the courts if I get screwed. > > Well, as far as I know, there are no laws against emmigration from the > United States. What's the problem? > > Baba As far as I know, if I attack you with a pitchfork and threaten to air you out if you don't give me your money, there are no laws against you leaving my presense. Does that mean that there is no problem with me threatening you with a pitchfork? The government points its pitchfork at me and then I am free to leave...(but ... but, it must be ok, because the government does it and they are for all sorts of good causes, and libertarians don't care about other people and... and... they have been doing it for years...). --Cliff [Matthews] {purdue, cmcl2, ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!cliff {csu-cs, pur-ee, convex, gatech, ucbvax}!unmvax!cliff 4744 Trumbull S.E. - Albuquerque NM 87108 - (505) 265-9143
dineen@apollo.uucp (Terence H Dineen) (02/08/85)
> ... > >But I cannot agree with arguments that there is no justification for taxation, > >or other such group fees as union dues. > > Ahh, how subtly it slips by. Almost escapes one's notice. Taxation is a > "group fee"? Sure am glad to know I can cancel my membership at any time, > ... > This is a perverted use of the phrase "group fee", and shows your > reluctance to acknowledge the coercive nature of taxation. > > --Barry > > -- > Barry Fagin @ University of California, Berkeley This is a perverted use of the word "coercive". You can cancel your membership at anytime. You are free to emigrate. Former citizens living elsewhere are not taxed (I hope). I don't like many of the ends to which my taxes are put and I wish they were used in ways in which they are not but I admit that it is my own decision to continue to participate in this imperfect union. I grant that there aren't any Libertaria's out there to emigrate to but whose fault is that? (It is a significant fact, I think.) To the extent that participation in the tax system is voluntary (in this fundamental "last resort" sense) how can it be said to be coerced? Much more plausible claims of coercion can be made when a state uses force against persons who have not volunteered to follow its rules (and meta-rules) or when it uses force against its own members in violation of the agreed upon rules. Examples are: (1) force against foreigners who are not posing a clear and immediate threat to the human rights of those who are members of that state and (2) unlawful police violence. Terry Dineen
josh@topaz.ARPA (J Storrs Hall) (02/11/85)
>You can cancel your membership at anytime. You are >free to emigrate. Former citizens living elsewhere are not taxed (I hope). > Terry Dineen Actually, moving to another country will generally cost you more than the taxes we were discussing in the first place. This is like saying you can easily prevent the government's cutting off your fingers by cutting off your arm ahead of time. It's nothing like membership in a groub that you can cancel by saying "Count me out." Another point to note is that foreign nationals working in the US are required to pay taxes here, and that American citizens abroad are still required to pay taxes here. --JoSH