joyceb@ptsfc.UUCP (Joyce Black) (01/30/85)
...what we know is not what they tell us... Regarding "favorite black" categories, I quote W. E. B. Du Bois: "It is a peculiar sensation, this double-conciousness, this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of the world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. One ever feels his two-ness, an American, a Negro; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings: two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder." Du Bois said that in 1902. A 1985 version might change Negro to Black. Racism is so deep in American attitudes that it often goes unrecognized. It is so deep that its expression goes unnoticed except by those to whom it is directed. It is so systematically encouraged that when one has that "peculiar sensation", one is more likely to think oneself too sensitive rather trying to deal with the very real duality of life as a Black American. Joyce Black ...none but ourselves can frree our minds...
moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) (02/03/85)
I'm not sure I'd call The American Music Awards representative of the US.
In fact, I don't think I'd call The American Music Awards representative of
anything that walks on two legs or doesn't urinate on fire hydrants...
"Now, for the LAST TIME, old man, WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?"
"And as I told you *already*, sir, I'm SELF-EMPLOYED and PROUD OF IT!"
Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPAslf@panda.UUCP (Scott Fisher) (02/06/85)
Distribution: In article <285@ptsfc.UUCP> joyceb@ptsfc.UUCP (Joyce Black) writes: >...what we know is not what they tell us... > >Racism is so deep in American attitudes that it often goes unrecognized. >It is so deep that its expression goes unnoticed except by those to >whom it is directed. It is so systematically encouraged that when one >has that "peculiar sensation", one is more likely to think oneself too >sensitive rather trying to deal with the very real duality of life >as a Black American. > > Joyce Black Let's see, There is the American Music Awards with a special catagory for black singers, there is the United Negro College Fund ("a mind is a terible thing to waste") And in many places there are quotas for hiring blacks and other minoritys. I think these things are *very* racist! What do you think would happen if somebody tried to organize the United White College Fund? or a special music award for white singers? By making special catagorys for blacks you are saying they are different. If special awards, scolarships and quotas like this were eliminated I think much predjudice would be eliminated. Before you hit the "f" key, scolarships should be "global", excluding *nobody*. Scott
nm34@sdcc12.UUCP (nm34) (02/09/85)
> Let's see, There is the American Music Awards with a special catagory for > black singers, there is the United Negro College Fund ("a mind is a terible > thing to waste") And in many places there are quotas for hiring blacks and > other minoritys. I think these things are *very* racist! > > What do you think would happen if somebody tried to organize > the United White College Fund? or a special music award for white singers? > > By making special catagorys for blacks you are saying they are different. > If special awards, scolarships and quotas like this were eliminated I think > much predjudice would be eliminated. Before you hit the "f" key, scolarships > should be "global", excluding *nobody*. > > Scott You are forgetting, Scott, that in our country, blacks are different. They have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything to be equal. Dont forget that there was a United White Persons College Fund and affirmative action for whites for years. Its just now that blacks and other minorities are getting a chance.Things wont be "equal" until we get everyone in the race up to the same place. Then we can ignor color and treat everyone the same. Andy Bindman p.s. Sorry that this isn't on net.politics but I had to respond.
gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (02/09/85)
> From: slf@panda.UUCP (Scott Fisher) >> In article <285@ptsfc.UUCP> joyceb@ptsfc.UUCP (Joyce Black) writes: >> ...what we know is not what they tell us... >> >> Racism is so deep in American attitudes that it often goes unrecognized. >> It is so deep that its expression goes unnoticed except by those to >> whom it is directed. It is so systematically encouraged that when one >> has that "peculiar sensation", one is more likely to think oneself too >> sensitive rather trying to deal with the very real duality of life >> as a Black American. >> >> Joyce Black > Let's see, There is the American Music Awards with a special catagory for > black singers, there is the United Negro College Fund ("a mind is a terible > thing to waste") And in many places there are quotas for hiring blacks and > other minoritys. I think these things are *very* racist! (1) The "special" categories for black singers are not EXCLUSIVELY for black singers, but designate a type of music which black people typically enjoy. It so happens that black people typically make such music, therefore they are usually the ones who win the awards. If you think black music awards are restricted to blacks, you have never heard of KC and the Sunshine Band, Foxy, Teena Marie, Hall & Oates, and a bunch of other white artists who have done very well on the r&b charts (and some have even won the black music category awards in past years). (2) The UNCF (United Negro College Fund) was set up in order that blacks who would otherwise not have the chance to attend college (due to financial, societal and other conditions) but who demonstrated the capability to succeed if conditions were otherwise would have the chance. It is not meant to segregate against non-blacks, rather to enable blacks (who, historically, have been among the most misfortunate, if not the most misfortunate Americans, when it comes to upward social/financial mobility) to have the chance to suc- ceed. The same can be said for black hiring quotas, affirmative action, etc. > What do you think would happen if somebody tried to organize > the United White College Fund? or a special music award for white singers? Well, actually, someone once did try to organize the United White "Rid America of Every Other Type of Person but Us WASPs" Organization, otherwise known as the KKK. I think that says enough. > By making special catagorys for blacks you are saying they are different. > If special awards, scolarships and quotas like this were eliminated I think > much predjudice would be eliminated. Before you hit the "f" key, scolarships > should be "global", excluding *nobody*. Now, for once, I understand the arguments for net.women.only, etc. It is attitudes like the above that are the cause of prejudice, not the reasons stated above. I thought that we were above the level of crying "spilt milk" because a minority got a job/got into a college/got whatever and a non-minority didn't. Chances are the non-minority's chances to get what he/she wanted were much better than the minority's. And, let us not forget, the whole thing star- ted when whites enslaved blacks, took them OUT OF THEIR HOMELAND AGAINST THEIR WILL and forced them to work their land, with NO PAY, with NO HOPE of freedom. They were OWNED by their masters, treated as CHATTEL, sold at the master's wills, families split up, some were raped, some were killed trying to escape (I digress ...). For any of you who think you are being discriminated because you are losing things to minorities, why don't you try imagining being a minority for once and knowing that doors are closed to you still because of who you are, and that no matter what you do you cannot change your fate. Flames welcome. -- If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo
gam@amdahl.UUCP (gam) (02/11/85)
> [Blacks] have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What > you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their > oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything > to be equal. Dont forget that there was a United White Persons College > Fund and affirmative action for whites for years. Its just now that > blacks and other minorities are getting a chance.Things wont be "equal" until we get everyone in the race up > to the same place. Then we can ignor color and treat everyone the same. > > Andy Bindman You know, there are a lot more Asians in the "hard sciences" that either Whites or other minorities. I think we should make laws to prefer non-Asians to Asians in mathematics, genetics, and computer science jobs. Until the non-Asians are up with the Asians. And then we can call it "Affirmative Action" so that it sounds like a good thing to do. But did you know that Affirmative Action doesn't help poor Blacks? It helps middle- and upper-class Blacks, but not the poor. Yet another well-intended government program goes awry. -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!gam
mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) (02/11/85)
From: nm34@sdcc12 ? (nm34) > You are forgetting, Scott, that in our country, blacks are >different. They have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What >you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their >oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything >to be equal. Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors* did? Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years ago. But the people who were hurt by it (the slaves) certainly aren't the o nes getting the affirmative action, and the people who did the hurting aren't being punished. Sure, blacks were enslaved and women were treated as inferiors, BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing women to stay home. Excuse me if I sound unsympathetic, but I've been asked my race and sex once too often and told that it mattered. (And for a slightly different angle: how many blacks and women resent affirmative action as an indication that they can't get jobs on their own merits?) I prefer to get hired because I'm qualified, thank you. And I'd like to know that my co-workers are competent, and are really the best people for the job. -Dragon -- UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (02/12/85)
In article <293@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA> mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) writes: >From: nm34@sdcc12 ? (nm34) >BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing >women to stay home. Actually, there is still discrimination going on today against blacks and women. It has not stopped. I've seen it often (and I am not black or a woman). The laws now give a person some recourse if it happens to them. >I prefer to get hired because I'm qualified, thank you. And I'd like to know >that my co-workers are competent, and are really the best people for the job. > -Dragon Then do so without all the bitching. -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen Eades) (02/12/85)
> You know, there are a lot more Asians in the "hard sciences" that > either Whites or other minorities. I think we should make laws > to prefer non-Asians to Asians in mathematics, genetics, and > computer science jobs. Until the non-Asians are up with the > Asians. And then we can call it "Affirmative Action" so that > it sounds like a good thing to do. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** No, no, no. What we really need to do is increase affirmative action so that there will be encouragement of Asians in the liberal arts field. That way we Japs and Chinks will dominate the world one day, like God intended. :-) Love, Ellen
gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (02/13/85)
<This really doesn't have anything to do with music> > From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) >> From: nm34@sdcc12 ? (nm34) >> You are forgetting, Scott, that in our country, blacks are >> different. They have been subjected to centuries of disadvantage. What >> you are saying is like telling a person who is in a race, where their >> oponent was given a 10 yard head-start, that its now time for everything >> to be equal. > Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors* > did? First off, no one is penalizing you! You are asked to make sacrifices, so that those who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to do what you have always had the opportunity to do are given that opportunity. > Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years > ago. But the people who were hurt by it (the slaves) certainly aren't the o > nes getting the affirmative action, and the people who did the hurting aren't > being punished. True, but it is the offspring of slaves that are still being mistreated because slavery existed, and civil injustice existed when slavery ended. Again, no one is being punished, see above. > Sure, blacks were enslaved and women were treated as > inferiors, BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing > women to stay home. Excuse me if I sound unsympathetic, but I've been asked > my race and sex once too often and told that it mattered. So, does this mean that blacks are supposed to pack up their things and go back to Africa? Is this the only viable solution to the civil rights problem, be- cause non-minorities are unwilling to right a wrong by making some sacrifices? If this is what people think, then I am not surprised that there is still discrimination and prejudice in the USA, and there probably will be until blacks just go away. It is not correct to equate the two, acutally, becuase women were not slaves in the sense that blacks were -- they still had the freedom to do as they pleased without fear for their lives. A woman who left her husband could not be legally brought back to him in chains, whipped, and forced back into servitude. > (And for a slightly different angle: how many blacks and women resent > affirmative action as an indication that they can't get jobs on their own > merits?) I'm sure a lot do, however a lot more resent the facts that they can't get jobs at all because only white males are getting hired. > I prefer to get hired because I'm qualified, thank you. And I'd like to know > that my co-workers are competent, and are really the best people for the job. I agree. I wouldn't want to be hired *just because* I'm a minority, however I wouldn't want *not* to be hired because I was a minority. Within the guide- lines of AA (not quota filling) it is possible to fill jobs with qualified minorities but until AA becomes a standard practice lots of minorities will lose out on opportunities which non-minorities take for granted. -- If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo
larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) (02/15/85)
> First off, no one is penalizing you! You are asked to make sacrifices, so that > those who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to do what you have always > had the opportunity to do are given that opportunity. > yes. and i don't mind making sacrifices for someone who is at a disad- vantage. but i WON'T make sacrifices for someone because they're black, or gay, or hispanic, or martian. > > Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years > > ago. But the people who were hurt by it (the slaves) certainly aren't the o > > nes getting the affirmative action, and the people who did the hurting aren't > > being punished. > > True, but it is the offspring of slaves that are still being mistreated because > slavery existed, and civil injustice existed when slavery ended. Again, no one > is being punished, see above. > so? jews have the same problem...i don't advocate mistreating ANYONE... and though i gave the deaf mute who handed me a card with the names of the fifty states on it and a note saying "i am a deaf mute trying to make a reasonable living. please give whatever you can." begging is begging...sure people have a disability...but they can do something about it -- helen keller was in a worse spot and look at all she accomplished... > > Sure, blacks were enslaved and women were treated as > > inferiors, BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing > > women to stay home. Excuse me if I sound unsympathetic, but I've been asked > > my race and sex once too often and told that it mattered. > > So, does this mean that blacks are supposed to pack up their things and go back > to Africa? Is this the only viable solution to the civil rights problem, be- > cause non-minorities are unwilling to right a wrong by making some sacrifices? > If this is what people think, then I am not surprised that there is still > discrimination and prejudice in the USA, and there probably will be until > blacks just go away. It is not correct to equate the two, acutally, becuase > women were not slaves in the sense that blacks were -- they still had the > freedom to do as they pleased without fear for their lives. A woman who left > her husband could not be legally brought back to him in chains, whipped, and > forced back into servitude. > > this is a silly argument. black americans would be as out of place in rural africa now as their forefathers were in the US. The blacks who did go to Liberia became just as oppressive over the locals as their masters treated them and their forefathers. but people just wouldn't fit. a woman who left her husband endured a different form of torture, no less painful in its own way, because both were centered around BREAKING the human spirit. it's like making a child stay out of the bathroom until they wet themselves, and then spanking them for it (not an extremely common form of child abuse but not unheard of, either). > > (And for a slightly different angle: how many blacks and women resent > > affirmative action as an indication that they can't get jobs on their own > > merits?) > > I'm sure a lot do, however a lot more resent the facts that they can't get jobs > at all because only white males are getting hired. > > > I prefer to get hired because I'm qualified, thank you. And I'd like to know > > that my co-workers are competent, and are really the best people for the job. > > I agree. I wouldn't want to be hired *just because* I'm a minority, however > I wouldn't want *not* to be hired because I was a minority. Within the guide- > lines of AA (not quota filling) it is possible to fill jobs with qualified > minorities but until AA becomes a standard practice lots of minorities will > lose out on opportunities which non-minorities take for granted. > -- > If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse. > > Greg Skinner (gregbo) > {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo i'm gay and i resent affirmative action. i wouldn't want a job because i was a faggot. i would want it because i'm damn good at what i do. i agree that something like the united negro college fund is a great idea. i think their slogan says it well, "We're not asking for a handout -- just a hand." what i resent in 'my own minority :-)' and all other minorities is the smugness that comes with being so in tune with one's oppression that one sees it even when it's not there...though the consequences of slavery were far-reaching, we can't expect them to pervade everything now. we can't take away so much as one whip-crack by giving every black in the world a fantastic job with $60k a year and a sexy secretary (of the appropriate sex). people giving me extra hoopla about getting hired because i am gay and have 'brothers and sisters' who suffered in the concentration camps and everywhere else aren't doing them any good by giving me an advantage. i know people who go out looking to be oppressed. they usually do get harrassed, but it's mostly because they're so obnoxious. most of the people here who have flamed the most about how all blacks and women and martians should be given extra special treatment are people who have all the comforts of home around them. a position where it's easy to look down on 'whitey' and make him pay (saves you having to dump into the till). larry... whole bit, nor can we -- uucp: ..mit-eddie!cybvax0!cci-bdc!larry arpa: henrik@mit-mc.ARPA This mind intentionally left blank.
gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (02/17/85)
> From: larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ Lines: 160 >> From: gregbo@houxm.UUCP (Greg Skinner) >> First off, no one is penalizing you! You are asked to make sacrifices, so >> that those who otherwise wouldn't have an opportunity to do what you have al- >> ways had the opportunity to do are given that opportunity. > yes. and i don't mind making sacrifices for someone who is at a disad- > vantage. but i WON'T make sacrifices for someone because they're black, > or gay, or hispanic, or martian. Well, ok, but how do we define disadvantage? If I am more advantaged than you, then I should make a sacrifice so that you should become as advantaged as I. (Fair enough.) But then, if someone else is more advantaged than me, by the same argument they should make a sacrifice so that I can be as advantaged as they. Now if we allow that an equivalently competent minority and non-minority are to be chosen for a job, because the odds are that the non-minority will be able to get an equivalent job in an environment where the minority would not get that job, the minority should be chosen. (This also assumes that the job applicants in question are at equivalent financial status, mental health, etc. in other words, all things considered equal.) I'm not saying that minor- ities should be blindly given preference for jobs, but that all factors should be weighed. >>> From: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad (Monica Cellio) >>> Yes, whites in America did something most people consider wrong, years >>> ago. But the people who were hurt by it (the slaves) certainly aren't the >>> ones getting the affirmative action, and the people who did the hurting >>> aren't being punished. >> True, but it is the offspring of slaves that are still being mistreated >> because slavery existed, and civil injustice existed when slavery ended. >> Again, no one is being punished, see above. > so? jews have the same problem...i don't advocate mistreating ANYONE... > and though i gave the deaf mute who handed me a card with the names of > the fifty states on it and a note saying "i am a deaf mute trying to > make a reasonable living. please give whatever you can." begging is > begging...sure people have a disability...but they can do something > about it -- helen keller was in a worse spot and look at all she accom- > plished... Oh come now, get serious. Helen Keller was the daughter of fairly well-to-do people. They could afford to hire her a personal tutor. As you recall, she was bratty at first and not even the tutor could do anything with her. 99.9% of the deafmutes in the world can't afford tutors like she had, many of them just get committed to institutions, many more just die. Not everyone in the world has the ability to do something about their disabilities, only those who are in a position where (1) they are financially able to do something about them, or (2) they can get some sort of aid which allows them to do something about their condition. >>> Sure, blacks were enslaved and women were treated as >>> inferiors, BUT no one is keeping the blacks here now and no one is forcing >>> women to stay home. Excuse me if I sound unsympathetic, but I've been asked >>> my race and sex once too often and told that it mattered. >> So, does this mean that blacks are supposed to pack up their things and go >> back to Africa? Is this the only viable solution to the civil rights problem >> because non-minorities are unwilling to right a wrong by making some sacri- >> fices? If this is what people think, then I am not surprised that there is >> still discrimination and prejudice in the USA, and there probably will be >> until blacks just go away. It is not correct to equate the two, acutally, >> because women were not slaves in the sense that blacks were -- they still had >> the freedom to do as they pleased without fear for their lives. A woman who >> left her husband could not be legally brought back to him in chains, whipped, >> and forced back into servitude. > this is a silly argument. black americans would be as out of place in > rural africa now as their forefathers were in the US. This is true, however this was not what I was trying to argue. What I was try- ing to say was that it is unfair to expect blacks to leave the USA on account of prejudice. Blacks did have a share in the building of this country, they have a right to stay. > a woman who left her husband endured a different form of torture, > no less painful in its own way, because both were centered around > BREAKING the human spirit. it's like making a child stay out of the > bathroom until they wet themselves, and then spanking them for it (not > an extremely common form of child abuse but not unheard of, either). I won't deny this, yet there is a difference in that blacks were not looked upon as humans by the then US government, and not entitled to any rights under- neath it. I'm not saying that women were treated fairly in divorce cases in those days (many weren't, as has been pointed out) but the laws were set up to enslave blacks (why do I feel like I am repeating myself?), they were not set up to enslave wives, although the laws may have been interpreted to do so in this case (which is no more correct, yet different). > i'm gay and i resent affirmative action. i wouldn't want a job because > i was a faggot. i would want it because i'm damn good at what i do. i > agree that something like the united negro college fund is a great idea. Well, I'm black (you already knew that). I wouldn't want a job because I was black, but because I consider myself to be good at what I do. I resent equally the fact that some people think I am where I am only because I am black -- I put in a lot of hard work to get where I am, and unlike some children of non- minorities (minorities too!) who could afford to buy them trash-80s or give them additional support in mathematics or science (neither of my parents, nor theirs,are particularly strong in the sciences), I had to do all that on my own. I do owe a debt of gratitude to AA for enabling me to go to school where I did, how- ever I didn't rest on my laurels and let AA get me out of there -- I worked my tail off when I was there too. > i think their slogan says it well, "We're not asking for a handout -- > just a hand." That's all I want, and all I want for those not as fortunate as me. > what i resent in 'my own minority :-)' and all other minorities is the > smugness that comes with being so in tune with one's oppression that one > sees it even when it's not there...though the consequences of slavery > were far-reaching, we can't expect them to pervade everything now. we > can't take away so much as one whip-crack by giving every black in the > world a fantastic job with $60k a year and a sexy secretary (of the > appropriate sex). Well larry, you've heard what I have to say, here and elsewhere, do I sound like I am looking for oppression? If I were, would I continue to associate with those who are supposedly oppressing me, even would I choose to associate with them? I am tired, and frankly, insulted, at being labeled as a flaming black racist. I considered myself to be one of the more enlightened blacks, regard- ing non-blacks, when I was in high school and college, and I continue to do so. If you think (you meaning any of you fellow netters) I am a flaming black ra- cist, I could introduce you to some black suprematists I know, and they will argue that *they* are right and you are wrong -- they will argue for black rights and power, up to and including the overthrow of today's society by blacks. I don't believe in any of those things, and am often to first to speak out against them, nevertheless I cannot sit idly by and let prejudice go unnoticed. > people giving me extra hoopla about getting hired > because i am gay and have 'brothers and sisters' who suffered in the > concentration camps and everywhere else aren't doing them any good > by giving me an advantage. You may not think so, but (1) by giving you an advantage, they recognize the suffering which your brothers/sisters endured, and (2) they are acknowledging that repairs should be made to the wrongs that were done them. It's easy to talk about injustice, but not so easy to do something about it. > most of the people here who have flamed the most about how all > blacks and women and martians should be given extra special > treatment are people who have all the comforts of home around > them. a position where it's easy to look down on 'whitey' and > make him pay (saves you having to dump into the till). I won't disagree, unfortunately it's only those who have some comforts who can recognize the need for equality. Those who don't are often too busy just try- ing to put together a life for themselves amidst their strife, and have no time or energy to conjecture about how things could be better (sort of like the "pulp mill" folks who don't rationalize singles relationships the way some of us do). I admit, I have comforts, however I am giving back something of what I have to those who do not. I tutor high school kids in math & science on weekends. I wasn't tutored in either of those on weekends when I was in high school. All I'm asking is that others give of themselves as I do. -- ... hey, we've gotta get out of this place, there's got to be something better than this ... Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo
shor@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Melinda Shore) (02/19/85)
[] >From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) >Please explain to me why *I* should be penalized for something my *ancestors* >did? Alas, as I see it, the problem isn't that we've got to atone for past transgressions, but that here and now women and minorities don't get a fair shake. White men don't need legislation or "space" ensuring that they will be treated fairly. Why don't we assume that the treatment of white males is a standard against which we can judge the treatment of everybody else? I'm not crazy about Affirmative Action, either, but I do believe that there is a need for something. (My favorite EEOC story is about a friend of my family who worked for them, and took them to court for sex discrimination ... ) -- Melinda Shore, Microcomputer Laboratory University of Chicago Computation Center uucp: ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!shor Mailnet: staff.melinda@UChicago.Mailnet Bitnet: shor%sphinx@uchicago.bitnet ARPA: staff.melinda%UChicago.Mailnet@mit-multics.arpa
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (02/20/85)
In article <143@cci-bdc.UUCP> larry@cci-bdc.UUCP (Larry DeLuca) writes: >helen keller was in a worse spot and look at all she accomplished... She had lots of free publicity after being the first person, with her disabilities, to be able to communicate at all. But some teacher made alot of sacrafices for her before she learned anything. >i'm gay and i resent affirmative action. i wouldn't want a job because >i was a faggot. Well, as another faggot, I don't think that I will bring up the fact that I am a faggot until after I am employed. However, once it is out I do not wish to thrown out either, and if I am terminated for being gay, I'm going to go to court. But alot of gay folk out on the streets don't have the advantages that I do (able to blend in) and get laughed out of personel offices before they can submit their qualifications. Similarly, there were policies in many corporations in the past (and probabally would still be except for the passage of strict Civil Rights legislation, and may still) like 'This company doesn't hire blacks/women/married women/jews/gays'. And if it takes a law and a cop to change these policies, bring on the boys in blue. >i know people who go out looking to be oppressed. they usually do >get harrassed, but it's mostly because they're so obnoxious. Right! Obnoxious means holding hands in public (I've been harrassed for that obnoxious thing)? Or dressing in women's clothes (I know alot of TS's). Or being black is obnoxious enough in some places. >blacks and women and martians should be given extra special >treatment are people who have all the comforts of home around >them. a position where it's easy to look down on 'whitey' and >make him pay (saves you having to dump into the till). Nope, it is those of us who 'have all the comforts of home' who should look out for the interests who 'ain't got nothing'. Sometimes that means dipping into my pocket, sometimes it means participating in a riot, sometimes it means putting up with a little inconvenience. That's life in the jungle. -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower