danw@oliven.UUCP (danw) (03/07/85)
[] >force to collect your debt, so you send your police to my house to >force me to pay up. They are met by a squad of MY police who >say that they do not recognize the legitimacy of your claim. >Result: gang warfare. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a re-occurring theme in "im afeared of Libertarianism" rhetoric. The concept of private police is a central piece of Libertarian ideology. As a result, Libertarian apologists must deal with this issue to dispel misunderstandings. My apologies to those who see the issue as a simple example of self evident market force questions. The following is for the benefit of those who have genuine questions about the 'nuts and bolts' of the workings of a Libertarian Free State . -> Item : There are no laws , as we are familiar with them, at present. In a Libertarian Free State (LFS) there is no LAW against burglary. If a person breaks into my house, steals my TV, and is later apprehended, he will NOT be charged with first or second degree burglary. ( The law book is NOT the injured party here. I am.) My renta-pig agency will provide detective and incarceration services (or subcontract with those who do). These services are not provided free. My basic monthly fee and insurance policy will cover these things. However, we all benefit from passing costs onto the criminal. As a result, the person who initiated the use of force ( stole my TV) finds himself as a defendant charged with causing perhaps 20 or 30 thousand dollars worth of damage. Police, lawyers, judges, insurance agents, and me, all want a piece of this guy. If he looses the case, there will be a large judgment to pay. -> Please note the taxpayers do not subsidize the process in any way. <- Note: This is NOT the state of --- vs Smith, type of legal action. Me, my insurance company , and my renta-pig company have petitioned the court to hear our case ( we have posted a performance bond , so the court will get its fee no mater what happens). Under our present system, the state can only be sued at its pleasure. Under a Libertarian system, the sword will cut both ways. Smith ( the TV thief) will all most certainly counter-sue me , my insurance company and my renta- pig agency . ( We have initiated force: kidnaping, false imprisonment , brutality, etc.) The amount of the counter suit will be equal to or greater than the amount we are asking. The renta-pig agency MUST carry MASSIVE insurance policies ( similar to medical malpractice insurance) to guard against losing false imprisonment and brutality cases. If a given agency looses a great number of such cases its insurance premiums will begin to climb without limit, the fees it must charge to stay in business will climb without limit,too. Their competitors will have a field day. Inept and/or brutal police agencies will run themselves out of business. I would not contract with an uninsured agency, as this puts me in the position of sharing their unlimited liability. (Remember there are no laws mandating the state of LIMITED LIABILITY in business affairs) Successful renta-pig agencies, will to a large extent, have their activities regulated by their insurance carriers. Risky, brutal or socially unacceptable activities will carry a high insurance premium. In a free and unregulated (by the government) market, one may be able to find renta-pig agencies who send heavily armed men to collect bad debts. Such specialized services would of necessity be prohibitively expensive, due to the liability involved. The cost effective solution to collecting the $1000 bad debt given in the example below, is to hire a bad debt collection agency. >Suppose I owe you $1,000 and refuse to pay. You decide to use >force to collect your debt, so you send your police to my house to >force me to pay up. They are met by a squad of MY police who >say that they do not recognize the legitimacy of your claim. >Result: gang warfare. No. The result is you would be informed (politely) that they (your renta-pig agency ) do NOT do windows, OR collect bad debts. danw
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (03/08/85)
In article <820@oliven.UUCP> danw@oliven.UUCP (danw) writes: > The concept of private police is a central piece of Libertarian ideology. > As a result, Libertarian apologists must deal with this issue to dispel > misunderstandings. I agree. We certainly don't want to change to a system we don't understand. > -> Item : There are no laws , as we are familiar with them, at present. > In a Libertarian Free State (LFS) there is no LAW against burglary. If there are no laws, on what basis can a court or judge make a judgement? > If a person breaks into my house, steals my TV, and is later apprehended, > he will NOT be charged with first or second degree burglary. ( The law book > is NOT the injured party here. I am.) > My renta-pig agency will provide detective and incarceration services > (or subcontract with those who do). These services are not provided free. > My basic monthly fee and insurance policy will cover these things. However, > we all benefit from passing costs onto the criminal. As a result, the person > who initiated the use of force ( stole my TV) finds himself as a defendant > charged with causing perhaps 20 or 30 thousand dollars worth of damage. Police, lawyers, judges, insurance agents, and me, all want a piece of this guy. > If he looses the case, there will be a large judgment to pay. -> Please note > the taxpayers do not subsidize the process in any way. <- And how will he pay for these "services"? If he stole because he is poor, then you probably have to enslave him. Else he would just move out of your jurisdiction. And what makes you think it would be economic to attempt to catch a burglar? Your rent-a-pig agency may find some classes of crimes uneconomic to bother with. Inevitably, the poor will not be able to afford any protection at all, just as they have never been able to afford lawyers. > Note: This is NOT the state of --- vs Smith, type of legal action. > Me, my insurance company , and my renta-pig company have petitioned the court to > hear our case ( we have posted a performance bond , so the court will get > its fee no mater what happens). > Under our present system, the state can only be sued at its pleasure. > Under a Libertarian system, the sword will cut both ways. Smith (the TV thief) > will all most certainly counter-sue me , my insurance company and my renta- > pig agency . ( We have initiated force: kidnaping, false imprisonment , > brutality, etc.) The amount of the counter suit will be equal to > or greater than the amount we are asking. If there are no laws, on what basis will the case be decided? How will the defendent be able to prepare a case while you are imprisoning and brutalizing him? Oh, you won't leave a mark, no evidence, you don't know where he was prior to a few minutes before the trial when you found him and brought him in. But you wrung his confession and your revenge out of him in the meantime. Assuming, of course, that you're not malicious. Of course people are going to hire rent-a-pig agencies that allow them private revenge before going to court. And every defendent will claim injury, because there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. The advantage of government police is that they will have a personal axe to grind less frequently than a rent-a-pig. > The renta-pig agency MUST carry MASSIVE insurance policies ( similar > to medical malpractice insurance) to guard against losing false imprisonment > and brutality cases. If a given agency looses a great number of such cases > its insurance premiums will begin to climb without limit, the fees it must > charge to stay in business will climb without limit,too. Their competitors > will have a field day. Inept and/or brutal police agencies will run themselves > out of business. I would not contract with an uninsured agency, as this puts > me in the position of sharing their unlimited liability. (Remember there are > no laws mandating the state of LIMITED LIABILITY in business affairs) Inept anythings go out of business. Brutality never goes out of style with those sophisticated enough to conceal their hand in it. There will be selection for rent-a-pigs who perpetrate revenge on criminals in ways that cannot be traced. From anonymous torture to murder to who knows what. If a poor person burglarizes your house, and your rent-a-pig tracks him down, it will be cheaper to slit his throat anonymously and take back the stolen goods then to take him to court. No chance of the verdict going the wrong way there. He's too poor to afford the rent-a-fury agency you have as life insurance. > The cost effective solution to collecting the $1000 bad debt given > in the example below, is to hire a bad debt collection agency. > >Suppose I owe you $1,000 and refuse to pay. You decide to use > >force to collect your debt, so you send your police to my house to > >force me to pay up. They are met by a squad of MY police who > >say that they do not recognize the legitimacy of your claim. > The result is you would be informed (politely) that they (your > renta-pig agency ) do NOT do windows, OR collect bad debts. And how would the debt collection agency collect? -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh