mck@ratex.UUCP (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan) (04/10/85)
Lines marked '>>>>' and '>>' are mine; lines marked '>>>' are Kelly's; lines marked '>' are Martin Taylor's. >>>I made what I thought was a fairly non-controversial statement: >>>The U.N. is the world's political forum. >>> >>>To which mck@ratex.UUCP (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan) replies: >>> >>>>NO! NO!! NO!!! The U.N. is NOT the WORLD's political forum; it is a >>>>forum for the OPPRESSORS of the world! >>> >>First, Kelly continues to make the mistake (thru-out his posting) of >>confusing governments with nations. Even if we accept democracy as a >>legitimate form of representation (I don't), few-if-any governments are >>legitimate agents of their nation (as an example, compare the military >>policy espoused by the US ambassador with the desires of most Americans). >>Second, while I object to the implications of Mr Kelly's 'Torture is >>torture.' (made in an earlier posting), I would regard any nation which >>systematically tortures peaceful people as oppressive, AND I WOULD >>CHALLENGE MR KELLY TO FIND ONE THAT DOES NOT! Third, it should be noted > >I also replied to DKMcK's "UN is a forum for the OPPRESSORS" in the >belief that he was referring to oppressor nations, and that he was >simply worng. Do us all a favor: Instead of responding to what I don't say ('oppressor nations'), respond to what I do say ('oppressors'). It makes everything go so much smoother. > His response to Kelly suggests irrationality rather >than simple error. The UN is indeed a forum for governments, which >DKMcK now almost defines as being torturers of their peoples and therefore >oppressors. So he has therefore DEFINED the UN as a forum for >oppressors, so that his original statement is not about the UN at >all, but about the nature of government. I do not 'almost define' governments as oppressors; using Kelly's point that torture is oppression, I note that all existing governments employ torture, and are therefore oppressors. I do not 'DEFINE the UN as a forum for oppressors'; I note that all of its member use torture, and are therefore oppressors, and therefore the UN is a forum of oppressors. I do not claim that government is by nature oppressive, but (rather) note that all existing governments happen to be oppressive. For my argument to suggest irrationality (as Taylor asserts), one of the following must be an irrational claim: 1. Torture is oppressive. 2. All existing governments use torture. If neither of these claims is irrational, then it is Taylor who is irrational. Back later, DKMcK