davidl@tekig5.UUCP (David Levadie) (04/12/85)
My conviction is that it is a moral obligation and a social responsibility to fight traffic tickets with all the resources at one's disposal, since traffic law enforcement is basically chickenshit legalized highway robbery and allows cops to prey on people with burned-out taillights instead of chasing burglars and rapists who, of course, might (shudder,quake) fight BACK. Practially nobody sees it that way, though. In general, no one will spend a few hours of their time, much less lawyer fees if necessary (which it often isn't) to fight a $30 ticket, unless their license is at stake. The necessity and obligation to obstruct and confound a twisted, warped system of legalities just isn't an issue with most people. *but* just consider what would happen if EVERYBODY who got a ticket started doing it at ONCE... who was it that said, "Even though what you do may be completely insignificant, it is very important that you do it" - ? A good number of traffic laws, and their enforcement, are/is unconstitutional under both state and federal law. And in the RARE cases where people have the tenacity to pursue a ticket through the courts, they often win. In at least one case that comes to mind, in Wyoming, a man who has no driver's license has been repeatedly ticketed and brought to trial, only to have the jury acquit him because he successfully argued that the Constitution protects his right to travel unobstructed. The case of air monitoring of traffic speed brings a couple of things to mind. One is that you, the accused, have the right to be allowed to view the evidence against you. What is the evidence of your excessive speed? Can the police produce it in court? Also, the means of monitoring your speed must be demonstrable to have no possibility of error which would allow your speed to have been erroneously clocked - and it is VERY difficult for the state to prove this for, for instance, radar units. Also, the act itself of conducting air surveillance is under attack by civil libertarians in various places right now. Tickets can be contested on many grounds, but you must be able to present a CONVINCING LEGAL CASE. You must be able to cite specific legislation and precedent which either renders your ticket technically invalid, or shows the law against you to be invalid (unconstitutional, etc.) or shows the state's case against you to be insufficient to prove you (yawn) "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" (YAAAAWWWNN!!!). I once got a ticket thrown out because the pig forgot to write in the amount of bail, and I had a copy of the Motor Vehicle Laws of Oregon (which I had to wave in the idiot-justice-of-the-peace's face after she ignored a letter pointing out the obvious) which specifically required the amount of bail as one of the entries on the citation form. (I love it - of course, I was guilty of the nonsensical trivia of which I was accused, but that was, of course, irrelevant.) Lawyers get paid for being able to present a structured case, in which they cite all the precedents and quote all the laws. It's up to you to decide whether you're able to handle all that. If you get a lawyer, GET A TRAFFIC SPECIALIST GET A TRAFFIC SPECIALIST GET A TRAFFIC SPECIALIST!!! there are some who have never lost a case and when a judge sees them it knows that whoever hired THAT lawyer has blood in their eye... If you lose in the inevitable idiot-justice-of-the-peace-with-a-third- grade-education court in which you will first be tried, you can appeal. If you decide to hire a lawyer AFTER you've been found guilty and decide to appeal, a lot of lawyers will get upset - they want to be fully informed on every detail of your case, and you've just cut them out of a whole bunch of information - I mean, if the judge didn't get the DATE on your sentence right, you can get off on a technicality, right right right, droogs??? Hmmmmm...... reminds me... I once saw a kid get out of an 80 in a 30, in a school zone (65 mommies out there just shit their pants) because the pig had written 30 in an 80 on his ticket. No lawyer, nothing... he just pleaded not guilty, told the judge, and the judge threw it out - you should have heard the courtroom, and seen the pig's face... Almost no one who has taken the time out of their life to even make the gesture of going to court on the $30 ticket is willing to even pay the $50 or $75 filing fee to appeal the case, much less any lawyers' fees, or a potential fee for higher-court appeals. But... the few who are, are the only hope for the rest of us. I keep hoping to see a political action committee or something spring up, dedicated to funding people who want to fight traffic cases, on a selective basis determined by the amount of chickenshit legality that would be eliminated from the books if the case were won definitively. Anybody know of one? I'll contribute!
braman@dataio.UUCP (Rick Braman) (04/15/85)
> My conviction is that it is a moral obligation and a social responsibility > to fight traffic tickets with all the resources at one's disposal, since > traffic law enforcement is basically chickenshit legalized highway robbery > and allows cops to prey on people with burned-out taillights instead > of chasing burglars and rapists who, of course, might (shudder,quake) > fight BACK. > Yeah, and your conviction is exactly what costs those of us who are willing to obey the laws alot of extra tax money, paying for your wasted time in court! > > got a ticket thrown out because the pig forgot to write in the amount of > bail, and I had a copy of the Motor Vehicle Laws of Oregon (which I had to > > droogs??? Hmmmmm...... reminds me... I once saw a kid get out of > an 80 in a 30, in a school zone (65 mommies out there just shit their > pants) because the pig had written 30 in an 80 on his ticket. No lawyer, > nothing... he just pleaded not guilty, told the judge, and the judge > threw it out - you should have heard the courtroom, and seen the pig's face... > Maybe someday when your trapped in the smoldering ruins of your auto the pig, as you so politely put it!, who responds will have read net.auto and decide your'e not worth saving! Oh, by the way, I don't know about the rest of the mommies and daddies who read net.auto but I think any *kid* who does 80 in a 30 school zone should be put in the slammer! If my child ever gets hurt by a moron like that he, or she, better have a guardian angel because I wouldn't be at peace until they are permanently taken off the road! Now why don't you keep tripe like you just wrote off net.auto and post it in net.flame from now on. Then I won't get mad and flame back, ruining everyone elses day like you just did to mine. -- uw-beaver!entropy!dataio!braman -- Usenet Rick Braman Data I/O Corp Redmond WA 206-885-5851
mms1646@acf4.UUCP (Michael M. Sykora) (04/19/85)
>/* braman@dataio.UUCP (Rick Braman) / 10:47 am Apr 15, 1985 */ >> My conviction is that it is a moral obligation and a social responsibility >> to fight traffic tickets with all the resources at one's disposal, since >> traffic law enforcement is basically chickenshit legalized highway robbery >> and allows cops to prey on people with burned-out taillights instead >> of chasing burglars and rapists who, of course, might (shudder,quake) >> fight BACK. >> >Yeah, and your conviction is exactly what costs those of us who are willing >to obey the laws alot of extra tax money, paying for your wasted time in court! Nonsense! Taxes are at the level they are because legislators are unwilling to raise them for political reasons. You're paying the amount of taxes you do because that's all the parasites have managed to squeeze out of you so far. Michael Sykora
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (04/21/85)
> >/* braman@dataio.UUCP (Rick Braman) / 10:47 am Apr 15, 1985 */ > > >> My conviction is that it is a moral obligation and a social responsibility > >> to fight traffic tickets with all the resources at one's disposal, since > >> traffic law enforcement is basically chickenshit legalized highway robbery > >> and allows cops to prey on people with burned-out taillights instead > >> of chasing burglars and rapists who, of course, might (shudder,quake) > >> fight BACK. > >> > > >Yeah, and your conviction is exactly what costs those of us who are willing > >to obey the laws alot of extra tax money, paying for your wasted time in court! > > Nonsense! Taxes are at the level they are because legislators are unwilling > to raise them for political reasons. You're paying the amount of taxes > you do because that's all the parasites have managed to squeeze out of you > so far. > > Michael Sykora I never cease to wonder at Libertarian cynicism. Do you really feel that your elected officials have *no* other motive than to acquire money to spend at their whim (within the bounds of political reality, of course)? And that the government never does anything useful? Or that increasing demands on its services somehow has no effect on its need for revenue? -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
brian@digi-g.UUCP (Merlyn Leroy) (04/23/85)
Article <65@tekig5.UUCP> davidl@tekig5.UUCP (David Levadie) vents his spleen: >...... reminds me... I once saw a kid get out of >an 80 in a 30, in a school zone (65 mommies out there just shit their >pants) because the pig had written 30 in an 80 on his ticket. No lawyer, >nothing... he just pleaded not guilty, told the judge, and the judge >threw it out - you should have heard the courtroom, and seen the pig's face... And this bastard (Levadie) actually LIKES the fact that this other bastard got off scot-free! I sincerely hope you go flying out your windshield one day. The human race would breathe a collective sigh of relief. Merlyn Leroy, who didn't know invertibrates could type.
mms1646@acf4.UUCP (Michael M. Sykora) (04/25/85)
>/* edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) / 1:54 pm Apr 21, 1985 */ >> >> Nonsense! Taxes are at the level they are because legislators are unwilling >> to raise them for political reasons. You're paying the amount of taxes >> you do because that's all the parasites have managed to squeeze out of you >> so far. >> >> Michael Sykora >I never cease to wonder at Libertarian cynicism. Do you really feel that >your elected officials have *no* other motive than to acquire money to >spend at their whim (within the bounds of political reality, of course)? >And that the government never does anything useful? Or that increasing >demands on its services somehow has no effect on its need for revenue? > > -Ed Hall > decvax!randvax!edhall What exactly do you mean by cynicism? First of all, what I stated does not necessarily imply anything about the motivations of politicians. Nonetheless, they are parasites because they are living off people against these people's wills, and I'm sure everyone feels the "squeeze." The politicians may truly believe that they are doing it for our own good, but that doen't change these facts. Furthermore, there are probably two types of people drawn to politics. Those who want to help others and those who desire power over others. The former group are less likely to take positions for politically expedient reasons. Therefore, the latter group succeeds more often -- because they are doing their job better. This is what so many democrats fail to understand. If this is what you mean by cynicism, then I am proud to be known as a cynic. I see no reason to place my faith in anyone in the absence of evidence that they are trustworthy. It is hard to imagine a group that has given more evidence that they should not be trusted than politicians. Michael Sykora
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (04/25/85)
> > >/* braman@dataio.UUCP (Rick Braman) / 10:47 am Apr 15, 1985 */ > > > > >> My conviction is that it is a moral obligation and a social responsibility > > >> to fight traffic tickets with all the resources at one's disposal, since > > >> traffic law enforcement is basically chickenshit legalized highway robbery > > >> and allows cops to prey on people with burned-out taillights instead > > >> of chasing burglars and rapists who, of course, might (shudder,quake) > > >> fight BACK. > > >> > > > > >Yeah, and your conviction is exactly what costs those of us who are willing > > >to obey the laws alot of extra tax money, paying for your wasted time in court! > > > > Nonsense! Taxes are at the level they are because legislators are unwilling > > to raise them for political reasons. You're paying the amount of taxes > > you do because that's all the parasites have managed to squeeze out of you > > so far. > > > > Michael Sykora > > I never cease to wonder at Libertarian cynicism. Do you really feel that > your elected officials have *no* other motive than to acquire money to > spend at their whim (within the bounds of political reality, of course)? > And that the government never does anything useful? Or that increasing > demands on its services somehow has no effect on its need for revenue? > > -Ed Hall > decvax!randvax!edhall It isn't that government is *trying* to be wasteful. There are two problems: first, government is intrinsically a monopoly, and so lacks the normal competitive pressures that keep other businesses efficient; second, elected officials are interested in getting re-elected. If they *know* something is stupid or wrong, I suspect most of them would oppose it, but since most of them aren't too bright, if they are ambivalent about an issue, or ignorant, they will do that which pleases the most vocal special interest groups, or their campaign contributors, or cronies.