mroddy@enmasse.UUCP (Mark Roddy) (04/27/85)
[] The problem with visiting Bitberg is that it HONORS the german veterens of world war II. As these people were feeding my relatives into the chimneys, I take personal offense at the suggestion that the german people should EVER be forgiven for what they did. -- Mark Roddy Net working, Just reading the news. (harvard!talcott!panda!enmasse!mroddy)
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (04/28/85)
In article <enmasse.396> mroddy@enmasse.UUCP (Mark Roddy) writes: > >The problem with visiting Bitberg is that it HONORS the german veterens >of world war II. As these people were feeding my relatives into the >chimneys, I take personal offense at the suggestion that the german ^^^ >people should EVER be forgiven for what they did. Ignoring, for the moment, Reagan's faux paus, let me comment on your own reaction. A number of my relatives died in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, so I understand what you feel. However, your attitude toward the German people is most un-Jewish. It was not THE German people, but merely SOME German people who committed these atrocities (with the help of some people of other nationalities, as well). Even if the entire German population was to blame (and I'm sure many were innocent), you still cannot blame Germans who were not grown up (or even born) during those years. Let us not condemn entire nations, but remember the victims and prosecute the guilty whenever we find them, so that such horrors will not occur again. This, too, goes for the Armenian genocide of 1914 (I think) and the Cambodian genocide at the hands of the communists in this very decade. Frank Silbemann
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (04/29/85)
Taking Mark Roddy's logic one step further, because Meyer Lansky was the brains behind Murder, Inc during the 30s and 40s, and Lansky was Jewish, we should never forgive the Jewish people for all of the murders committed by that group. Sounds stupid, doesn't it? Isn't there enough raw hate in the world without adding to the problem with such dumb remarks? In the history of the world, it is just such insane hatred that keeps rearing it's ugly head to cause people to repeat their mistakes. Should the hatred you espouse against all Germans be extended to the Poles (not too good a record during the 40s concerning Jews)? How about the Spanish, the the Ukrainians, the French, the Italians all of whom, at one time or another persecuted and instituted pogroms against the Jews? Should we all instill in our cultural heritage a hatred for someone or some country? What I read from your article is that there is such a thing as nationalistic blame and that it can never be expunged. Do you really believe that all Germans must share the blame for what happened now and forever more? I certainly do not mean that you should forgive and forget. I do mean that you should not forgive those who perpetrated such an evil act, yet I do feel that venting anger and hatred at those who have come later is wrong. I do not think you should forget either, as in forgetting, we are doomed to repeat the evil. I think a little tolerance is in order in this situation. If history is destined to repeat itself, couldn't the evil possibly come from another quarter, and the younger Germans, having learned from history, be the Jews strongest defender? Maintaining an unrelenting hatred for the German people could, at some future time, work against the Jewish community. However one might feel about the evil of the past, I don't think that maintaining hatred is the answer to future problems. Never forget nor forgive those who a party to the evil, yet do not blame the son for the sins of the father. T. C. Wheeler
cff@uvaee.UUCP (Chuck Ferrara) (04/29/85)
> [] > The problem with visiting Bitberg is that it HONORS the german veterens > of world war II. As these people were feeding my relatives into the > chimneys, I take personal offense at the suggestion that the german > people should EVER be forgiven for what they did. Blaming a generation of German's who were born after the war is like blaming today's Jews for killing Christ. Think about it Bozo!
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (04/30/85)
Mark Roddy: > As these people were feeding my relatives into the chimneys, I take > personal offense at the suggestion that the german people should > EVER be forgiven for what they did. > Give me a break! Do you -- and your children, and grandchildren, and ... - take personal responsibility for what happened at My Lai? -- Saumya Debray SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {allegra, hocsd, philabs, ogcvax} !sbcs!debray arpa: debray%suny-sb.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa CSNet: debray@sbcs.csnet
mjk@ttrdc.UUCP (Mike Kelly) (04/30/85)
>From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) >because Meyer Lansky was the brains behind Murder, Inc >during the 30s and 40s, and Lansky was Jewish, >we should never forgive the Jewish people for >all of the murders committed by that group. >Sounds stupid, doesn't it? It sure does. But the real stupidity is in making an analogy between this and the deliberate policies of genocide practiced by the Nazi government and carried out by the SS. Mike Kelly
chris@nrcvax.UUCP (Chris Grevstad) (05/01/85)
In article <> mroddy@enmasse.UUCP (Mark Roddy) writes: >[] >The problem with visiting Bitberg is that it HONORS the german veterens >of world war II. As these people were feeding my relatives into the >chimneys, I take personal offense at the suggestion that the german >people should EVER be forgiven for what they did. > I have tried to refrain from joining this fray, but I feel compelled to comment on the above. I find it utterly distasteful to find someone who will unconditionally refuse to ever forgive a people for something. Sure, the mass murdering of millions is execrable and heinous, but there is still grounds for forgiveness for the Germans. They are human, many of them were not even alive at the time, and large numbers of them perished as a result of Nazi poilicies and the total destruction of many of their cities. Eastern Germany has had to live under the cruel thumb of Russia these past years. I'm sure that has been no picnic. Young Germans (post war) have had to live all their life with this stigma attached to them. Massive guilt. So let's never forgive 'em. Condemn those who are innocent to years and decades of suffering because of the actions of their parents. I don't condone what was done, but neither do I condone Mark Roddy's attitude. I will grant you my relatives were not fed to the chimneys, but they still had to live under harsh and often severe Nazi domination. -- Chris Grevstad {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!chris ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!chris Life is difficult for the organizationally impaired.
mike@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Stalnaker) (05/01/85)
> Mark Roddy: > > As these people were feeding my relatives into the chimneys, I take > > personal offense at the suggestion that the german people should > > EVER be forgiven for what they did. > > > Saumya Debray: > Give me a break! Do you -- and your children, and grandchildren, > and ... - take personal responsibility for what happened at My Lai? > -- .... Probably get scorched for this one too, but..... If the German peopble should never be forgiven for what they did, Should the Jewish people ever be forgiven for the genocide they commited in taking the land of Cannan? I don't want to hear "It was ordained by the Lord" either. What ever happened to "Thou shalt not Kill"?? Is that really supposed to read "Thou shalt not kill, unless thy coveteth thy neighbor's land?" -- Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!decuac,cbosgd,seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-2593 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 "Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one. Appeal to his better interests instead" --Lazarus Long
desjardins@h-sc1.UUCP (marie desjardins) (05/02/85)
> > >From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) > >because Meyer Lansky was the brains behind Murder, Inc > >during the 30s and 40s, and Lansky was Jewish, > >we should never forgive the Jewish people for > >all of the murders committed by that group. > >Sounds stupid, doesn't it? > > It sure does. But the real stupidity is in making an analogy between > this and the deliberate policies of genocide practiced by the Nazi > government and carried out by the SS. > > > Mike Kelly So you're saying that because of the genocide practiced by the Nazis, we should hate and resent the German people for ever and ever, amen? If you are, you are sadly mistaken. marie desjardins
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (05/03/85)
In article <396@enmasse.UUCP> mroddy@enmasse.UUCP (Mark Roddy) writes: >[] >The problem with visiting Bitberg is that it HONORS the german veterens >of world war II. As these people were feeding my relatives into the >chimneys, I take personal offense at the suggestion that the german >people should EVER be forgiven for what they did. > Mark Roddy Racial prejudice is as evil when it is practiced by Jews against Germans as it is when practiced by Germans against Jews.