mf@cornell.UUCP (mf) (05/02/85)
Lest we forget... It is very easy to dismiss the strong reactions to this president's visit to ``that'' cemetery. After all, aren't they dead, shouldn't our memories be dead too? In the last few days, I have spoken with many a survivor from the camps, as well as refugees and people who had lived hidden, in fear, anguish and famine. If they were silent up to now, it is because of the excrutiating pain *they* feel when remembering, and it is because of the silence imposed upon them by those who don't want to hear and who don't want to know. How can one forgive and forget in their name? Theirs is a testimony against a system which did not respect the elementary rights of everyone to his own originality and particularity, not only about a fact of dead history, but an evidence of an ever-present reality. Their stories are ones of despair and hope, a very topical warning to all of those who did not believe then and want to forget today, to those who look at the serene and pastoral ruins of the camps sincerely believing that they signify the death of a plague rather than the birth of a new evil, and who pretend to believe that all this is of one time and one country and who do not hear that people cry unceasingly. If you don't know what I am talking about, find someone who lived this season in hell, and listen. Or watch. ``Night and Fog,'' say. Here are some personal sketches a friend and I heard. Frederika, a very old woman, was telling me how the quotas prevented her from entering the USA with her family, and how, consequently, she had to go to Australia, while her mother and 3 sisters died in Theresienstad. Irmgard told me how she was imprisoned and tatooed (41-965) and later made, along with other women, to stand in the courtyard of Auschwitz and watch 3 women being hanged. When she lowered her head so as not to see, a German soldier hit her with the butt of his gun and told her "You pig, you are supposed to watch." As the Russians approached, she with other prisoners were packed like cattle in open wagons and shipped for days without food and under snow and rain to yet another concentration camp. Upon her arrival here, she had to endure the guilt for having survived and be a living testimony of the human-imposed barbarism, imposed by her by complacent and well-fed people. In spite of all, she is one of the most wonderful, intelligent and gentle women I know. And she is still afraid, and she still has nightmares. Mira couldn't tell me a thing, it is too painful for her, but her friend told me some of the things that had happened to her: her husband taken out of her house and shot in the street, her son (or nephew, I don't recall) thrown live in the flames, her stay in one of the worst camps, finally to be sent into the sea in boats without food or steering means, and at every attempt at approaching the shore--to be machine-gunned by the Nazis (they were rescued by the Russians). A friend's mother was raped by a nazi soldier while she watched her husband being shot. Surviving that seems herculean... Ernestine had her father taken out and shot (in Austria) because he was Catholic and socialist. I had a friend in Tucson. He was hidden by a Christian lady in Belgium for the duration. One year, on Christmas eve, he decided to take the chance to go out and buy her a Christmas present to thank her. As he approached the house after shopping, he saw the SS cars out front, so slipped into a doorway and waited. Apparently, the SS had been told she was hiding a Jew; when they came, she expressed shock that they could even think such a thing, and invited them to search the premises to confirm that no one else was there. He was in hiding for something like four years -- he only left the house that once for a couple hours. Such a narrow escape haunts him still. Collective memory, collective pains. If the only death that one knows of is that of actors on a stage (who miraculously resurrect at the end of the movie), of ridiculous Nazis in a sitcom, of Riefenstahl's pageants, lack of empathy and sensitivity makes more ... sense. Especially when political expediency is concerned.
jj@alice.UUCP (05/02/85)
It's unfortunate that many people cannot understand the difference betweeen forgetting and forgiving. They two concepts are utterly unrelated, one essential to the continuted health of the human race (forgiving), and one pathalogically damaging to same (forgetting). mf's article on "lest we forget" completely misses the point that NOBODY is asking anyone to forget what happened. FORGETTING enemity is something else, since what it REALLY means is forGIVING those alive today who were NOT responsible, not forgetting what happened. (I think this syntatic point is clear to everyone, it's just that it makes nice fodder for people who want to cry wolf and/or make unfounded allegations. By the way, congratulations to mf for the first piece of NON-offensive propoganda I've seen in a very long time. I don't agree with the point, even though the examples are true, because the point is flawed by a specious base, namely that one is being asked to forget, rather than forgive. Asking one to forget would be, as far as I'm concerned, offensive at the very least, and more likely suspect. _______________ Aside to Ken... I see you've made the same preemptive assumption about the Reagan Administration as others, namely that the whole collection of individuals is stupid. I think that prevents you from seeing the questions of honor and responsibility that are evident (even though undoubtedly misguided) in the Bitburg visit. If you do NOT assume that the administration is stupid (since they DO disagree with you), and rather assume that people who disagree can do so without being stupid and idiotic, then you may find different conclusions. ______________ Note: To the anonamous person who suggested that the JDL should bomb my house. I thank you, my SO thanks you, etc.etc. It's amazing, the hate mail that I've gotten from posting a letter asking people to forgive and !not! forget. It seems that a lot of well known (and less well known) net personalities are totally incapable of giving the other guy a break, after asking for many breaks themselves. I think those of you who deliberately slandered me during this exchange have finally shown your true colors as hypocrites who will take any advantage that they think they can get away with. In the future, I shall regard your arguments solely as deliberately misleading sophistry, and without any redeeming value, perhaps except as sophistic literature. The deliberate lying in articles posted to the net by people who defame me for no other reason than asking them to help create a minimum of peace is astounding. I guess that while it's OK to propose war and revolution, it's absolutely unforgivable to post a message suggesting that people should (of their own free will), try to make the world a better place. (Sigh, whatever happened to the 60's?) I guess the watchword of the '80's is destruction. I think I want to move to another planet. The attitudes (not the ideals, the ATTITUDES) presented in this newsgroup are entirely unnecessary, I guess I'm starting to be glad that the net is collapsing under it's own weight. Where will you rave when the net is gone, folks? -- DO TEDDY BEARS HAVE OPINIONS? ASK YOURS TODAY! "My mind is clearer now, at last, all too well, I can see, where we all, soon will be.." (ihnp4/allegra)!alice!jj
desjardins@h-sc1.UUCP (marie desjardins) (05/04/85)
I suggest the following: Forget Forgive Individual soldiers, who can No Yes be shown to have had no authority The German army of WWII in No No general (including SS and others) Today's German people who still No No hold prejudices against Jews Today's other German people No yes So we won't forget anything, since knowledge is a Good Thing, but we'll forgive those who have (as far as can be determined) no guilt. Isn't this nice and fair? marie desjardins
mms1646@acf4.UUCP (Michael M. Sykora) (05/05/85)
>/* jj@alice.UUCP / 4:19 pm May 2, 1985 */ >. . . FORGETTING >enemity is something else, since what it REALLY means >is forGIVING those alive today who were NOT responsible, not >forgetting what happened. . . There is no need to forgive those who were not responsible. In fact, it is nonsensical to forgive those who were not responsible.
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (05/06/85)
> I suggest the following: > > Forget Forgive > > Individual soldiers, who can No Yes > be shown to have had no > authority > The German army of WWII in No No > general (including SS and others) > Today's German people who still No No > hold prejudices against Jews > Today's other German people No yes > > So we won't forget anything, since knowledge is a Good Thing, but we'll > forgive those who have (as far as can be determined) no guilt. Isn't this > nice and fair? > > marie desjardins Forgive those who have no guilt? How? They have nothing to be forgiven for. If anything, those who condemned those who have no guilt should ask forgiveness, not presume to grant it. I have been forgiven for certain things I did; not because I had no guilt, but precisely because I did, but the people I hurt loved me enough to accept me anyway. And because I asked for forgiveness, and said I would try to do better. Now the Germans who were not responsible for the holocaust have no need of forgiveness on that account. We, on the other hand, who have been guilty of prejudice, insofar as we lump all Germans together, need to ask the innocent Germans to forgive us. And the Germans who were not directly responsible for the holocaust, but allowed it to happen through inaction, or feel that they were partially responsible, need, perhaps, our forgiveness. But we in turn also need their forgiveness, for I am sure that the rest of the world has laid more guilt on their shoulders than is theirs to bear. And the Germans who *were* directly responsible for the holocaust, even *they* should be forgiven, if they (sincerely) *ask* forgiveness. (Determining such sincerity is a non-trivial problem, which I am disinclined to address at the moment.) Even the greatest humanitarian can become a scoundrel; even the worst scoundrel can become a humanitarian. Gary Samuelson
mms1646@acf4.UUCP (Michael M. Sykora) (05/07/85)
>/* garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) / 12:05 pm May 6, 1985 */ >And the Germans who *were* directly responsible for the holocaust, >even *they* should be forgiven, if they (sincerely) *ask* forgiveness. >(Determining such sincerity is a non-trivial problem, which I >am disinclined to address at the moment.) Even the greatest >humanitarian can become a scoundrel; even the worst scoundrel can >become a humanitarian. > >Gary Samuelson WHY SHOULD WE FORGIVE THEM?!?!?! This last paragraph is nonsense!!! There is no need for or point to forgiveness here. Those who were responsible for murder must be put to death, those who were responsible for torture must be tortured, etc. -- THAT IS ALL!!! Michael Sykora