nebula@sftig.UUCP (nebula) (05/10/85)
> > And the Germans who *were* directly responsible for the holocaust, > even *they* should be forgiven, if they (sincerely) *ask* forgiveness. > (Determining such sincerity is a non-trivial problem, which I > am disinclined to address at the moment.) Even the greatest > humanitarian can become a scoundrel; even the worst scoundrel can > become a humanitarian. > > Gary Samuelson I can appreciate where this is coming from. However, I feel compelled to qualify that those responsible for such acts were not Germans, they were Nazis. I feel that this sort of distinction is necessary in order to distinguish human from non-human. The German people were and are human. They were NOT directly responsible for the acts of the non-humans. The non-humans who were/are directly --> RESPONSIBLE <-- for such attrocities, should not be associated with any one nationality. Non-humans such as the Nazis, the Kmer-rouge, the Stallinists, the Moa-Tse Dungs, the Jim Jones' ("people's temple") commit acts of attrocity against humanity. These acts are carefully contrived, well planned, precisely calculated, executed and freezing cold. For these reasons I feel that your statement about ~"scoundrels becomming human- itarians" or even the suggestion that the possibility exists for non-human to become human is ludicrous and extremely dangerous. I don't mean to pick on your thoughts or feelings in particular, Gary. My intent is to address the overall issue of forgiveness of non-humanity. As far as forgiveness for non-humans who commit despicable acts of attrocity against humanity, THEY SHOULD NEVER BE FORGIVEN! People should ALWAYS remember the insults and crimes that the non-human perpetrates on the human. If a close look is taken at the modus operendi of non-humans, I think that it will make itself evidently clear that the reasons a non-human would ever even consider asking for anything, much less "forgiveness" from humanity, has nothing and will never have anything to do with sincerity of regret for their actions. I'm no expert, but as near as I can tell, the overriding philosophies that all non-humans share is some sort of concept that their acts are mandated, necessary and above all, justified. The motivations for the associated actions perpetrated upon humanity is hard to determine for this human. However, I do feel it acurate to state that the ultimate goal of non-humanity is to rid this world of humaninity. The minute that we in the relatively free world forget, ignore or turn our back on these motivations is the day that the non-humans will have our families, our friends, our relatives, our associates and our collective heads. As a case in point, let us not forget what happend to the humans of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos once America turned it's back on them (I don't site this example to bring shame upon America or to open wounds but the point must be brought home). Doug Donahue attunix!dr_d 201 522 6175
garys@bunkerb.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (05/14/85)
> > > > And the Germans who *were* directly responsible for the holocaust, > > even *they* should be forgiven, if they (sincerely) *ask* forgiveness. > > (Determining such sincerity is a non-trivial problem, which I > > am disinclined to address at the moment.) Even the greatest > > humanitarian can become a scoundrel; even the worst scoundrel can > > become a humanitarian. > > > > Gary Samuelson > > I can appreciate where this is coming from. However, I feel compelled > to qualify that those responsible for such acts were not Germans, they > were Nazis. I feel that this sort of distinction is necessary in order > to distinguish human from non-human. The German people were and are > human. They were NOT directly responsible for the acts of the non-humans. > The non-humans who were/are directly --> RESPONSIBLE <-- for such > attrocities, should not be associated with any one nationality. > Non-humans such as the Nazis, the Kmer-rouge, the Stalinists, the > Mao-Tse Dungs, the Jim Jones' ("people's temple") commit acts of > attrocity against humanity. I have often heard it said that the Nazis "and the like" were not "human." 'Tain't so. They were very bad humans, and I wish they had not been allowed to go as far as they did, but they were humans. Calling them nonhuman is a bad idea for several reasons: 1. It allows us to think that we are immune to the desire for power, or whatever it is that drives such people. *Anyone* can succumb to the temptation to do evil -- don't think that you are exempt. 2. It facilitates the very behaviour you wish to eliminate. Once you start thinking about some group as nonhuman -- be they Nazis or be they Jews -- it isn't difficult to think about ridding the world of that group, all in the name of 'humanity,' of course. For every group of people, there is another group which would like to be able to define the other as nonhuman. Gary Samuelson