li63sfh@sdcc7.UUCP (Philip Kao) (05/09/85)
In article <578@spp2.UUCP> jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull) writes: >In article <2054@sdcc6.UUCP> ix913@sdcc6.UUCP (Q Van Brink) writes: >> >> WHY DISINVEST? >> >>South Africa is a country with twenty million Africans (72% of the >>population), four and a half million Whites (16%), three million >>Coloureds (9%)and 800,000 Asians (3%). Yet, the Coloureds andAsians >>have only minimal civil right and the 72% African majority are >>stripped of all basic Human rights. They cannot vote, buy or sell >>land, live or work where they choose, or move about freely in their >>own country. Only the Whites enjoy full rights of citizenship. >>This is apartheid. > >QvB thus implies that the Whites, Coloureds, & Asians are foreigners >in South Africa. At what point does a person cease being a foreigner? >How many generations does it take? According to an Encyclopaedia >Brittanica (Oh, God, they're the enemy aren't they? Dare I trust them >to be accurate? :-), the present black population of South Africa is >just as foreign to the region as are the other groups. Jeff, you seem to be a bit sarcastic and maybe a little bit too literal here. probably Q Van Brink was implying that whites, coloureds, and asians are the minority groups in south africa. i believe that zenophobia classifies foreigners as minorities. >>In order to demonstrate our resolve, the members of the Coalition for >>a Free South Africa have been sitting in at the Winnie Mandela >>Library and holding teach-ins and debates to educate the campus and >>community at large. >I challenge this statement. You are not trying to educate anybody. >You are trying to sway people to your point of view, which is a >totally different thing. If you were truly convinced of the >correctness of your position, you would be content to provide all the >facts regarding the situation & let others make their own decisions >rather than try to propagandize us. if teach-ins are swaying people's opinion, then what are debates? aren't we trying to inform people of news in south africa ??? maybe we should call them forums, since that is really what they are. how do you suggest we spread this knowledge ??? maybe by talking to a bunch of people gathered in a room, huh ??? well that sounds like a teach-in to me. >Why not undertake a constructive action for a change? okay we're all ears. dragon-pup
jc@sdcsvax.UUCP (John Cornelius) (05/09/85)
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jc@sdcsvax.UUCP (John Cornelius) (05/09/85)
Whoa!!!! This discussion is getting a little out of hand, folks. On the one hand those who advocate divestment imply that those who don't are ignorant, stubborn, and heartless. On the other hand those who don't advocate divestment are implying that those who do are frivolous, unreasonable, and stubborn. I exaggerate, of course, but not much. Please take note that NO ONE IS DISPUTING THE FACTS OR THE ETHICS OF APARTHEID! Apartheid is bad stuff and the South African Government is brutal and repressive. No one is apologizing for their actions. By the same token the radical and labor movements among the 'non-whites' are antagonistic and unruly. There is a lot of destructive turmoil in South Africa today. That's a fact! What is up for discussion is how best to eliminate the discrimination, fear, terrorism, turmoil, and general insanity in South Africa. The divestment issue relates directly to this subject and only this subject. How about we should get back on track and try to understand the options available to us to achieve our common goal? John Cornelius Western Scientific ....!sdcsvax!westsci!jc
ee163acp@sdcc13.UUCP (DARIN JOHNSON) (05/10/85)
> >>In order to demonstrate our resolve, the members of the Coalition for > >>a Free South Africa have been sitting in at the Winnie Mandela > >>Library and holding teach-ins and debates to educate the campus and > >>community at large. Disclaimer: I am in no exagerated stretch of the imagination a supporter of apartheid, and support the student protest as far as is it is morally and lawfully executed. The problem is, after the 'teach-in' 2 of my friends came away convinced of erroneous facts. They heard the statement "UC invests 2.6 billion dollars in companies investing in South Africa." Their interpretation, and the one I think they were influenced to believe, was that this 2.6 billion dollars were going directly to South Africa. This is false. What the statement means is that 2.6 billions go to the companies (that happen to invest in SA). Since the average investment is 1% in SA by these companies, it seems that only about 26 million ever makes it over there. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a horrible amount still. The problem is that people at the sit/teach in were mislead (albeit, not intentionally). I can imagine these students then telling other students, etc. It is things like this that make outside viewers take us less seriously than they ought. Ok, I'm through, but one last piece of advice. Since so many people are looking to throw dirt at us, lets make sure they look elsewhere to find it. Darin Johnson
jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull) (05/11/85)
this article *ME* > article <1447@sdcc7.UUCP> li63sfh@sdcc7.UUCP (Philip Kao{|stu) >>article <578@spp2.UUCP> jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull) *ME* >>>article <2054@sdcc6.UUCP> ix913@sdcc6.UUCP (Q Van Brink) >>> >>> WHY DISINVEST? >>> >>>South Africa is a country with twenty million Africans (72% of the >>>population), four and a half million Whites (16%), three million >>>Coloureds (9%)and 800,000 Asians (3%). Yet, the Coloureds andAsians >>>have only minimal civil right and the 72% African majority are >>>stripped of all basic Human rights. They cannot vote, buy or sell >>>land, live or work where they choose, or move about freely in their >>>own country. Only the Whites enjoy full rights of citizenship. >>>This is apartheid. >> >>QvB thus implies that the Whites, Coloureds, & Asians are foreigners >>in South Africa. At what point does a person cease being a foreigner? >>How many generations does it take? According to an Encyclopaedia >>Brittanica (Oh, God, they're the enemy aren't they? Dare I trust them >>to be accurate? :-), the present black population of South Africa is >>just as foreign to the region as are the other groups. > >Jeff, you seem to be a bit sarcastic and maybe a little bit >too literal here. >probably Q Van Brink was implying that whites, coloureds, and asians >are the minority groups in south africa. i believe that zenophobia >classifies foreigners as minorities. Phillip, QvB doesn't imply whites, coloureds & asians are minority groups in South Africa; he states it explicitly. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such word as zenophobia, perhaps you mean xenophobia (fear & hatred of strangers or foreigners). If so, what does that have to do with being a minority (less than half)? >>>In order to demonstrate our resolve, the members of the Coalition for >>>a Free South Africa have been sitting in at the Winnie Mandela >>>Library and holding teach-ins and debates to educate the campus and >>>community at large. >>I challenge this statement. You are not trying to educate anybody. >>You are trying to sway people to your point of view, which is a >>totally different thing. If you were truly convinced of the >>correctness of your position, you would be content to provide all the >>facts regarding the situation & let others make their own decisions >>rather than try to propagandize us. > >if teach-ins are swaying people's opinion, then what are debates? >aren't we trying to inform people of news in south africa ??? >maybe we should call them forums, since that is really what they >are. Both teach-ins (as I know them) & debates, provide at least a modicum of information about more than 1 side of an issue. Ideally, they provide enough information for an outsider (me) to understand the basic position of each party to an issue & why each feels as he does. I have seen no attempt to provide information about the position of the South African government, any of the companies that invest in South Africa, any information about the various Marxist states in the southern part of Africa & their policies toward South Africa (or toward their own populations, which is at least as important. cf Robert Mugabe) or, in fact, anything except unsupported statements that "they are bad guys & we want to punish them." Now, Africa & things African are not my major interest in life; I am quite uneducated about what is going on there now. But I recognize diatribe & propaganda when I hear it. & I hear it. How about some information instead. Yes, I read Newsweek, Time, & US News & World Report. No, I do not watch TV news nor read newspapers. I occasionally watch MacNeil-Lehrer, Meet the Press, & Face the Nation. Next question. >>Why not undertake a constructive action for a change? > >okay we're all ears. So now you want me to do your planning for you. Ok. Start with my suggestions above (i.e., acquire a basic working knowledge of the history of the area & begin to distribute same), then dig into the socio-dynamics of African tribal life & the contemporary politics of South Africa & the 4(?) countries that border her & the 2 countries(?) that she surrounds & some basic international politics. Now you will be able to understand the answers when you start writing the US Department of State asking questions & any suggestions you may make will, at least, be listened to because you will demonstrate some understanding of the subject. In parallel, have some of your members either buy stock in the companies who invest in South Africa or otherwise acquire proxies. Attend the annual stockholders meeting & get some time on the agenda. To this meeting, take a plan for affirmative action in South Africa. This plan should be *carefully* formulated & include elements tailored to control & adapt to all factors identified in your initial study (outlined above). It *must* include a cost estimate, both of the plan itself & of failure to implement the plan. Remember, the Board of Directors is responsible to the stockholders *TO MAKE A PROFIT*. To get them on your side, you have only to show them that a plan is cost effective. Don't ask them to do it because it is right! They may or may not respond to such a plea. Put your ideas to them in *their* language; show them it is to their advantage to do what you want them to do. I strongly recommend reading several books on military tactics, especially as applied to social & commercial situations; A Book of Five Rings by Musashi Miyamoto; The Art of War by Sun Tzu; On Guerilla Warfare by Mao Tse Tung; Guerilla War by Che Guevara; On War by von Clauswitz. Learn what these masters have to teach about how to get others to do what you want them to. Do not make the mistake of believing that I am directing you to violence here; I am not. I am suggesting to you that there are certain basic principles that can be applied to any situation to direct the resolution to suit you. Use them. -- Blessed Be, Jeff Hull {decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,scdrdcf,ucbvax} 13817 Yukon Ave. trwrb!trwspp!spp2!jhull Hawthorne, CA 90250 34o3'15" N by 118o14'28" W
li63sfh@sdcc7.UUCP (Philip Kao) (05/11/85)
blessed be what?!!? now that you have graciously given your guru-ish knowledge on the situation. do you realize how much money that will cost ??? can we then borrow a few million from the sell of your stock in south africa ?!?!?!?!? so i misspelled xenophobia for zenophobia, it's still the same idea which reached you. (i don't know how) weren't you the same guru who insisted this discussion be off of the .general since great gods like you do not want to be bothered by this petty problem. besides if you had READ the article rather than the TITLE (you know don't judge a book by it's author) then blessed be, you might have realized that we were just trying to begin a discussion. where else do you start a discussion ??? if you want the entire net to discover that you are starting a brand new discussion. net.discussion.start ????? net.brand.new.discussion ?????????? hey blessed be, that's not a bad idea. obviously, for those of your superior intellect we should start a new group net.guru.advice ????????? net.blessed.advice ??????????? dragon-pup well it seems that blessed be the hypocrites is more of your motto !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull) (05/14/85)
to say. References: <2054@sdcc6.UUCP> <578@spp2.UUCP> <1447@sdcc7.UUCP> <585@spp2.UUCP> <1450@sdcc7.UUCP> Reply-To: jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull) Distribution: na Organization: TRW, Redondo Beach CA In article <1450@sdcc7.UUCP> li63sfh@sdcc7.UUCP (Philip Kao{|stu) writes: > >blessed be what?!!? >now that you have graciously given your guru-ish knowledge on the >situation. do you realize how much money that will cost ??? >can we then borrow a few million from the sell of your stock >in south africa ?!?!?!?!? >so i misspelled xenophobia for zenophobia, it's still the same >idea which reached you. (i don't know how) ... and a lot more of the same kind of low-semantic-content ____, uh, stuff. Phillip, Ad hominem attacks are only for people who have nothing valuable to say. Please respond to the points I have raised. Or don't bother to respond. P.S. Please move this part of the "discussion" to net.flame where it belongs. P.P.S. Please note that I do read ca.politics, so my request to move this out of ca.news & ca.general had nothing to do with whether or not I wanted to be bothered. -- Blessed Be, Jeff Hull {decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,scdrdcf,ucbvax} 13817 Yukon Ave. trwrb!trwspp!spp2!jhull Hawthorne, CA 90250 34o3'15" N by 118o14'28" W
gam@amdahl.UUCP (G A Moffett) (05/18/85)
You wouldn't want us to decide this on the basis of who uses
the best rhetoric, now would you?
--
Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,sun}!amdahl!gam