jj@alice.UUCP (06/27/85)
> From allegra!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!bellcore!decvax!decwrl!spar!ellis Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 > ... > Clayton, if you insist on perpetrating your misunderstanding in the face > of major evidence, at least back up your claim. Otherwise, please retract > your misstatement. > ... Ok, Mike, how about retracting the following, a direct quote from you: > > Why do the anti-AA forces insist that the bogus guilt-strawman is a > pro-AA argument? Maybe rigid traditional attitudes and too many fairy > tales have clouded their minds, such as: Michael, that's an argument that's just as *ist as anything else I've seen, except that it's against a group of people that you think have certain beliefs, rather than people of a certain race or sex. Why do you lump everyone who doesn't like AA as "the anti-AA forces" and suggest that, of course, since they disagree with you, THEY must have clouded minds? Is it a desire to slander those who disagree with you? Is it a desire to be unfair, and to mislead those who are less careful readers of this mud-slinging? <How do you like it when I speculate on YOUR motives in the same way that you're speculating on mine, below:> It's quite offensive to those you would convice, which is quite counter-productive. You've spent quite a bit of verbiage disparaging those who are anti-AA, but I haven't seen you spend much time addressing the questions of helplessness, education, responsibility, and the like that are the root causes and first-order effects. (Please find Seligman's book, Mike, and read it. I don't think it will annoy you, and it might give you some idea of what I'm proposing are causes and effects.) As an aside, the thought that I'm anything near "rigid traditional" is somewhat amusing. I'm sure that a lot of people would be a lot more willing to fit me into white male society if I was, but I prefer to be honest. It's hard to tell what the other person is like over the net, Mike, do remember that! > *Our system is already fair. A quick, perfunctory perusal of any of my "Anti-AA" articles would show you that I've never claimed that "our system is already fair", in fact, I've been pretty explicit on how it isn't. In fact, in the article that you quoted utterly out of context, I went to some length to make that point. > *If we must make adjustments (as per AA) then somebody (those on top) > must be guilty of a crime. Again, Michael, I haven't said that, so why are you associating it with my position? I haven't said that those on top aren't guilty of a crime, either, by the way. > *Those in power acquired their situation fairly, by hard work, > competing on an equal basis with those who are now underprivileged. Again, go back and reread some of my articles. I haven't said anything of the sort, and I've argued the opposite until I'm red in the face. > *Our wonderful system does not unjustly reward those who > conform to the white male image, or else such conformism is > healthy/natural/fitting for our society. Gee, didn't I just say that our system DOES reward the "typical white male"? Yeah, I did. I also have said that there are a lot of white males who come from the wrong side of the tracks and who are NOT rewarded at all, in fact, they are punished for being from the wrong side of the tracks and having aspirations beyond blue-collar labor. Well, Mike, I'm resolutely anti-AA, and I'm on record as disagreeing strongly with all of the things that you say I believe. Perhaps you are also guilty of a form of prejudice, Michael, when you presume the motivations of your opponents? Perhaps as in all extreme arguments, there's some room in the middle, and a few people in the room? I've continuously asserted that AA doesn't work very well, and I've proposed other actions that I think will work better. I'd really like to see some dialogue on alternatives, and on effectiveness, among all the extremes. ***Working together instead of against each other has such greater rewards!*** > I believe that the current AA debate will go nowhere until we all > understand the enormous diversity of attitudes people have towards > sentiments such as the above. And I believe that the current AA debate will go no farther until some the PRO-AA people read what has actually been said by some of the anti-AA individuals. The namecalling, scatology, insult, misquote, and the like that some of the PRO-AA people have used is doing NOTHING to convince me, and is likely to convince a lot of other people who are evaluating the way the arguments are made, and not in a pro-AA manner. Please, note, by the way, that the anti-AA "forces" aren't any more unified than the pro-AA "forces", and that some of the anti's are as bad or worse than the pro's. I do NOT take responsibility for others' actions, even though you would have me do so in the name of AA, among other things. > -michael -james -- TEDDY BEARS MAY BECOME EXTINCT! HELP AN ENDANGERED SPECIES! "...So many years have passed, though I'm older but a year, my mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me." (ihnp4/allegra)!alice!jj