cbd@iham1.UUCP (deitrick) (08/02/85)
> > ..... And if the U.S. and >allies support the White Regime 'till the bitter end, what kind of leaders do >you think will be in charge afterwards? BITTER ones! and do you think they'll >give a damn about western style democracy? > > >Larry Kolodney > *************************************************************************** > > ........If the U.S. would reverse its >foreign policies and assist non-Americans in establishing >true democracies (not these puppet fascist regimes who >serve American mulitinational corporate interests), we >would find America treated with respect and the Marxist >surge would subside. Let's show the world that democracy is >better through actions, not bogus rhetoric. > > Todd Jones I can already feel the heat of the flames for this, but it's an important point and I can't pass this up. What makes anyone think that the rest of the world wants or even cares about democracy? As far as I can tell, democracy is practiced only by the countries in Europe or countries with strong European influence in their history (in fact, most of them are not really democracies, but republics). It's the height of stupidity to believe that the political system we're used to is appropriate for the rest of the world, especially in places that do not have the same intellectual background as we do. Our political system works for us because we have a thousand years of practice, preparation, and tradition. Other countries don't have that same background. I believe that many of the problems that African countries are experiencing can be traced to the arrogant, arbitrary division of that continent into units that ignored the real African political unit - the tribe. The Nigerian civil war, in which the tribespeople of northern Nigeria tried to form Biafra, has it's roots in that arbitrary division, which just happened to lump together tribes who wanted nothing to do with each other. The southerners used the fact that they were a "country" to try to dominate the northerners, who naturally took exception and tried to go their own way. It was a slaughter. So much for imposing European ways on non-Europeans. Anyone who watched any television at all in the 60's was bound to see scenes of the Viet Nam war. Time has jumbled most of those scenes into a confused collection of helicopters and running soldiers, but the one thing that stands out clearly is the confusion of the Vietnamese peasant who happened to be in the way of the fighting. It was obvious (at least to me) that those poor peasants couldn't care less about why anyone was fighting. All the peasants wanted to do was go back home, live their life, and raise their family. America's greatest delusion in that abortion in SE Asia was that it was bringing democracy to the Vietnamese people. To the Vietnamese people, "democracy" is an idea as foreign as nuclear fusion or MTV. We've shown enough arrogance in our history. Let's not compound it by trying to impose democracy on people who don't care about it. Anyone out there have a Nomex suit I can borrow for several weeks? Carl Deitrick ihnp4!iham1!cbd ************************************ The opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of AT&T Bell Laboratories. ************************************
todd@SCIRTP.UUCP (Todd Jones) (08/06/85)
> What makes anyone think that the rest of the world wants or even cares about > democracy? > It's the height > of stupidity to believe that the political system we're used to is appropriate > for the rest of the world, especially in places that do not have the same > intellectual background as we do. Our political system works for us because > we have a thousand years of practice, preparation, and tradition. Other > countries don't have that same background. > -Carl I am one of the original posters you responded to. While I don't disagree with you in general, I feel i should clarify my position. First of all it is clear to me and many others that America has not assisted other countries with the establishment of Democracy, even though all our actions are carried out under that premise. I believe many nations would benefit from the establishment of true democracy, although you're right-my opinion is valueless since I'm not from those nations. But.... We don't live in a vacuum and the concept of assisting other nations in maintaining isolation is kind of ludicrous. The Marxists of the world will be applying pressure, as will factions within each nation that may or may not represent the best interests of the citizens. The reason I advocate *PASSIVE* assistance in establishing demo- cracies is not to proliferate many Americas all over the globe so i can still use my Mastercharge everywhere. The appeal of true democracy is that every person has a voice. In Marxist regimes, this does not happen. As I understand the Chinese system (rather poorly I'm sure) addresses the people's concerns to an extent much greater than most other forms of Marxism. this probably explains why Chinese communism works for China. I believe in offerring democracy by example, and if no resistance is met, assisting in demostrating the benefits. I know I sound paternalistic and I don't mean to equate America with any kind of political savior, but I think present attempts at "spreading democracy" by America are totally pathetic. I'll regret saying this but, "If we don't influence them, someone will." ||||||| || || [ O-O ] Todd Jones \ ^ / {decvax,akgua}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!todd | ~ | |___| SCI Systems Inc. doesn't necessarily agree with Todd.
lkk@teddy.UUCP (08/06/85)
In article <421@iham1.UUCP> cbd@iham1.UUCP (deitrick) writes: >I can already feel the heat of the flames for this, but it's an important >point and I can't pass this up. > >What makes anyone think that the rest of the world wants or even cares about >democracy? As far as I can tell, democracy is practiced only by the countries >in Europe or countries with strong European influence in their history How many countries HAVEN'T had a strong european influence in their history? > [More examples of how European style govt. is irrelevant to the inhabitants of many third world countries.] Well, Carl, you may be surprised that I'm in essential agreement with you. Much of the conflict in the third world is due to arbitrary boundaries imposed by Colonialists. And we SHOULDN'T be trying to impose anything on anybody. HOWEVER, I still maintain that the extremism of many revolutionary groups is due to U.S. intervention (economic and political) in small countries. I suggested that we weren't helping democracy in the third world. Perhaps that was a poor choice of words. We aren't helping HUMAN RIGHTS in the third world. This is a concept that, in my view, should trancend cultural boundaries. The right not to be tortured is universal. We shouldn't be imposing 'humane' governments on other countries. But we shouldn't be instigating conditions which are noxious to such systems either. -- Sport Death, Larry Kolodney (USENET) ...decvax!genrad!teddy!lkk (INTERNET) lkk@mit-mc.arpa