arndt@3434.DEC (08/15/85)
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**************** HAPPY 40TH HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI!! *******************
**************** MAY YOU HAVE MANY MORE TO REMEMBER *******************
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Sorry to be so late in getting this out but I've been busy pickin' the
wings off flys . . . no, not really, I've been trying to get all the white
paint off my body left there from layin' on the dirt roads hereabouts and
paintin' a white shadow to remember the 40th!
With all the hand wringing and lamenting about us droppin' the bomb on the
Japs during the war a few things seem to have gone by the board. One
almost gets the impression we were the 'bad' guys for pickin' on the poor
fun lovin' little islanders.
One is always saddened at the killing of children. But for instance,
if they HAD won the war we'd be living in a different world and they
(along with their allies the good ole Germans) and those very children who
died in H & N might this minute be beating the stuffin' out of YOUR
children!!! Remember how friendly the Japs were to prisoners and nations!
If I start shooting at people from my car or home in which my family are
sitting, and if they are hit by return fire that is MY RESPONSIBILITY. I would
apply the same analogy to nations. Even more so when the civilian
population supported the war!
They sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind! I remember a statement by
Viscount Slim at the surrender (he insisted against Mac's orders the Jap
officers give up their swords) that he felt no pity for these men when he
remembered what they did to their prisoners.
Speaking of which here's a little sample:
Orders posted on a Jap prison ship
"Commander of the Prisoner Escort Navy of the Great Japanese Empire"
Regulations for Prisoners
1. The prisoners disobeying the following orders will be punished with
immediate death.
a) Those disobeying orders and instructions.
b) Those showing a motion of antagonism and raising a sign of
oppositon.
c) Those disordering the regulations by individualism, egoism,
thinking only about yourself, rushing for your own goods.
d) Those talking without permission and raising loud voices.
e) Those walking and moving without order.
f) Those carrying unnecessary baggage in embarking.
g) Those resisting mutually.
h) Those touching the boat's materials, wires, electric lights, tools
switches, etc.
i) Those climbing ladder without order.
j) Those showing action of running away from the room or boat.
k) Those trying to take more meal than given to them.
l) Those using more than two blankets.
2. Since the boat is not well equipped and inside being narrow, food being
scarce and poor you'll feel uncomfortable during the short time on the boat
Those losing patience and disordering the regulation will be heavily
punished for the reason of not being able to escort.
3. Be sure to finish your 'natures call'. Evacuate the bowels and urine
before embarking.
4. Meal will be given twice a day. One plate only to one prisoner. The
prisoners called by the guard will give out the meal quick as possible and
honestly. The remaining prisoners will stay in their places quietly and
wait for your plate. Those moving from their places reaching for your
plate without order will be heavily punished. Same orders will be applied
in handling plates after meal.
5. Toilet will be fixed at the four corners of the room. The buckets and
cans will be placed. When filled up a guard will appoint a prisoner. The
prisoner called will take the buckets to the center of the room. The
buckets will be pulled up by the derrick and be thrown away. Toilet papers
will be given. Everyone must cooperate to make the room sanitary. Those
being careless will be punished.
6. Navy of the great Japanese Empire will not try to punish you all with
death. Those obeying all the rules and regulations, and believing the
action and purpose of the Japanese Navy, cooperating with Japan in
constructing the 'New Order of the Great Asia' which lead to the world's
peace will be well treated."
The End
What some of you need is a good dose of reality! The Japs and the Nazis
were qualified bastards! (Qualified because even in the prisoner diaries
there are accounts of German and Japanese humanity being displayed -read
THE MURDERS AMONGST US, by Simon Weisonthal)
A few lines from such a diary: (an American held in China)
June 4 to June 18: Sick most of this period; stomach cramps and fever.
Was standing next to Lonnie Riddle (electriction) when one of the Japanese
guards called him over to the fence. Riddle refused because it was against
the rules to be near the fence. Without warning, the Japanese guard raised
his rifle and shot Lonnie through the neck. He died immediately.
Aug.11: Japanese ordered each man in camp to kill five flies and five
mosquitoes every day. Oh boy! A sailor named Hodgkins got careless around
the electric fence today and was killed.
Oct. 2: Colonel Yusi, the Camp Commandant, died today of pneumonia. I was
sorry. He was not one of the vicious ones as long as you didn't make waves
To see survivors of the atomic bombings speak about what THEY suffered
without even mentioning what they SUPPORTED and what the Japanese nation
did is a moral outrage! To see Americans cheer them when they speak with
such a lack of moral view is disgusting.
I have been to the Hiroshima memorial at ground zero and I wanted to shout
"Where is the memorial to what you did to those who brought this upon you?"
The Japanese are still hated throughout many parts of the Pacific Rim.
When in Manila, in a seedy section of town a few years back, I got worried
for my safety (strange what with my being such a sweet guy, eh?) and being
even then the quick thinker that I am I started talking about my father who
fought in the Islands against the Japs, etc. Well, night and day!
Suddenly I had a bodyguard and 'God Bless America!"
Well, this is gettin' too long. Remember I'm not talking about using the
bomb NOW. Just about how and why we did back then. The ivory tower
scientists, many of them never having seen a shot fired in anger much less
AT them lamented the use of the bomb. (Also remember, only SOME of them
did! Many spoke out against Oppenheimer's famous statement to the effect
that now physicists had known sin.)
The facts of history are very clear, the Japs were NOT going to surrender,
their own testimony says so, and the bomb forced the issue with the
Emperor making the decision against the war party after the second bomb
and we weren't at all sure the bomb would work if we gave a demo, etc.
Not to resist evil IS evil. May the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki long
be remembered so that evil men will know that there is risk in waging war.
HAPPY 40TH H & K !
Regards,
Ken Arndtmmar@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Mitchell Marks) (08/16/85)
Ken, you're stuffing a lot of irrelevancies on top of the issue. Most of
the points you raise I can either agree with, or set aside as too hard to
settle, and *still* find this anniversary something to lament.
In particular:
1. I entirely agree that the Axis side was wrong and the Allied
side was right, in some quite solid sense that is happy with
these absolute judgments. Does anybody seriously question
this? No; so it doesn't require the heat and detail you give it.
2. It is not easy to say whether the use of the A-bomb was necessary
in the situation as it stood at the time; or even whether, if not
necessary, it was justifiable. My inclination is to say that it
was unnecessary, but justifiable. Your inclination, apparently,
is to say that it was necessary. I don't want to start an argument
on the substantive points, but I do object to your apparent view
that it's easily settled. It's not, it's a hard question. That's
why there isn't a clear historical consensus.
In any case, settling this point isn't necessary. Let us even,
for the sake of argument, grant it your way.
Then the lamentation over the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is purely
hindsight, and is not a deep moral judgment upon those who had to make the
decision at the time. 'Just hindsight': but hindsight is powerful and worthy.
What we are so worked up about on this anniversary (those of us who are
worked up) is based on something we know now, but they didn't know then, and
we can't blame them for not knowing -- that nuclear weapons are a lively
and active threat to our civilization and perhaps to the survival of our
species.
What we're talking about here is the future. We're most of all lamenting
the future possibility of nuclear war, and on this occasion doing so by
looking at the one time in the past when that which we dread actually
happened...in miniature, and in a different context, but nonetheless a real
case of the same thing.
To use nuclear weapons today would be a dreadfully immoral thing, a crime
against humanity. Rendering that judgment in today's situation does not
mean that we cast the same condemnation upon HST and his advisers. But with
that proviso in mind, what's wrong with our using this anniversary -- this
year and every year -- to say "It happened once, let it never again come
to pass"? That's what the fuss is about, that's what we're tearing our
hair about, and none of this is changed by reciting and weighing up the
cruelties of all aspects of World War II.
--
-- Mitch Marks @ UChicago
...ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!mmarmcgill@alice.UUCP (Bob McGill) (08/16/85)
At last - some common sense. Or, perhaps, someone else old enough to remember.
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (08/19/85)
In article <3665@decwrl.UUCP> arndt@3434.DEC writes: >The Japanese are still hated throughout many parts of the Pacific Rim. >When in Manila, in a seedy section of town a few years back, I got worried >for my safety (strange what with my being such a sweet guy, eh?) and being >even then the quick thinker that I am I started talking about my father who >fought in the Islands against the Japs, etc. Well, night and day! >Suddenly I had a bodyguard and 'God Bless America!" > >Not to resist evil IS evil. May the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki long >be remembered so that evil men will know that there is risk in waging war. I wasn't there, of course, but I know my mother and probably many other Chinese would agree with what Ken has said. The Japanese invaded China also. My mother experienced that first hand and will never forget. -- Yuck! This coke tastes different! Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA