fagin@ucbvax.ARPA (Barry Steven Fagin) (08/24/85)
I just got back from a vacation in Hawaii, and had an interesting experience worthy of a net.politics posting. My wife and I decided to go scuba diving; she's experienced, while I had never been before. When we went to get equipment, the dive shop wouldn't rent anything to me because I wasn't certified; my wife had to get gear at two different dive shops in her name. I spoke at great length with a dive shop owner about this. Apparently, there are no laws in Hawaii that forbid renting to non-certified divers. Instead, the companies that insure the dive shops require that their customers be certified. My gut reaction was "What a crock", since in diving I endanger only myself and perhaps my wife, and we're both consenting adults, but since the regulations were strictly noncoercive I couldn't get too riled up. An interesting example of how the free market keeps a sport safe, even though it may piss off libertarians. --Barry -- Barry Fagin @ University of California, Berkeley
ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (08/24/85)
Barry Fagin's note on scuba equipment rentals is interesting, and completely correct except for two minor details. He says: "An interesting example of how the free market keeps a sport safe, even though it may piss off libertarians." Well, it doesn't piss off THIS libertarian. That is how the free market SHOULD work. What DOES piss me off -- and is NOT the way the free market should work -- is that I cannot say to the rental agency: "Please rent me your equipment even though I am not certified: I will agree, in writing, not to hold you responsible for anything that happens to me as a result of my ignorance." The trouble is that the chances are too great that it will be possible to convince a jury that because I am not certified, I could NOT have made an informed decision to accept my own risks, and therefore that the rental agency is liable ANYWAY!
eklhad@ihnet.UUCP (K. A. Dahlke) (08/25/85)
> --Barry > When we went to get equipment, the dive > shop wouldn't rent anything to me because I wasn't certified; my > wife had to get gear at two different dive shops in her name. I > spoke at great length with a dive shop owner about this. Apparently, > there are no laws in Hawaii that forbid renting to non-certified divers. > Instead, the companies that insure the dive shops require that their > customers be certified. My gut reaction was "What a crock", since in > diving I endanger only myself and perhaps my wife, and we're both > consenting adults, but since the regulations were strictly > noncoercive I couldn't get too riled up. An interesting example of > how the free market keeps a sport safe, even though it may piss > off libertarians. It *should* piss off libertarians, it pisses me off!!! These restrictions *are* instances of coercion, albeit indirect. Our absurd (and getting worse each year) legal system allows anyone to take anyone to court for any reason, and probably win. If your relative drowns, get a good lawyer, you can get money out of: the store that sold him the scuba equipment, the spectators on the beach, the airline that flew him to said vacation spot, anyone!!! Even if you haven't got a valid case, the store will settle out of court, to avoid the inevitable lawyer bills that the innocent party *always* has to pay. That's right, no risks in life, anything goes wrong, you get money back. Just remember to cry a lot in the courtroom. You might consider breaking something on purpose! I apologize for the exaggerative flammatory nature of the above paragraph, but it is a serious problem, and it is growing worse. Absurd cash awards for absurd reasons represents a coercive force, distorting the free market, and ruining a few lives along the way. If sufficiently provoked, I can expound on this topic at length, providing some thoughts on how we can improve the situation. Fortunately, now that we are on the edge of a disaster, a few legal higher-ups are *finally* seriously studying the problem. -- This .signature file intentionally left blank. Karl Dahlke ihnp4!ihnet!eklhad
bob@pedsgd.UUCP (Robert A. Weiler) (08/25/85)
Organization : Perkin-Elmer DSG, Tinton Falls NJ Keywords: In article <4205@alice.UUCP> ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) writes: >Barry Fagin's note on scuba equipment rentals is interesting, >and completely correct except for two minor details. > >He says: "An interesting example of how the free market keeps >a sport safe, even though it may piss off libertarians." > >Well, it doesn't piss off THIS libertarian. That is how the >free market SHOULD work. > >What DOES piss me off -- and is NOT the way the free market >should work -- is that I cannot say to the rental agency: >"Please rent me your equipment even though I am not certified: >I will agree, in writing, not to hold you responsible for anything >that happens to me as a result of my ignorance." The trouble >is that the chances are too great that it will be possible to >convince a jury that because I am not certified, I could NOT have >made an informed decision to accept my own risks, and therefore >that the rental agency is liable ANYWAY! Mr Fagin and Mr Koenig are indeed correct about how the scuba industry works. Mr Fagin suggests these is a glowing triumph for Libertaria. However, there is a key point to be made; scuba diving is a purely pleasure oriented activity. Mr Fagin may have been pissed off, but he got over it fairly quickly. If the service was instead food, or water, or shelter, or heat, or medical service, the outcome would be very different. I am grateful that the government has left scuba diving pretty much alone, but cant we also pick this as a triumph FOR republican democracy? Given the chance, they have not (yet) intervened. As I understand it, Mr Koenig is wrong that in a Free Market would allow him to voluntarily take the risk. It may still be that the dive industry would prefer not to take the risk of being sued. They might insist that he pay as much as the cost of a certification course as insurance against this risk.And they DO make money certifying people. Just trying to cause trouble. Bob Weiler. PS. I have redirected followups to net.politics.theory to spare everyone else.
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (08/26/85)
In article <10169@ucbvax.ARPA> fagin@ucbvax.UUCP (Barry Steven Fagin) writes: > My wife and I decided to go scuba diving; she's experienced, while I > had never been before. When we went to get equipment, the dive > shop wouldn't rent anything to me because I wasn't certified; my > wife had to get gear at two different dive shops in her name. I > spoke at great length with a dive shop owner about this. Apparently, > there are no laws in Hawaii that forbid renting to non-certified divers. > Instead, the companies that insure the dive shops require that their > customers be certified. My gut reaction was "What a crock", since in > diving I endanger only myself and perhaps my wife, and we're both > consenting adults, but since the regulations were strictly > noncoercive I couldn't get too riled up. An interesting example of > how the free market keeps a sport safe, even though it may piss > off libertarians. So what we have here is examples of how the free market is ineffective at protecting you from "unsafe" practices, and of your wife violating a contract (implied, perhaps.) Funny how neither of those examples inspires me to embrace libertarianism. -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) (08/28/85)
Scuba diving is a more dangerous sport than many people realize. Getting certified makes a person aware of those dangers and helps her instill the second-nature practices that one needs to do it safely. I suppose those who forgo the certification are endangering only themselves and possibly one of their companions. The deeper you plan to dive, the more foolish you are being for not getting certified. I think that some have suggested that the dive shop be cleared of any responsibility for renting equipment to and uncertified diver. How about the coast gaurd? Could they be relieved of having to search for you if you don't return from your trip? Some certification level ought to be required. If not, rescue workers like the coast gaurd are going to be spending a lot more time saving fools from their folly. -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd