black@pundit.DEC (DON BLACK DTN 261-2739 MS: NIO/N13 LOC: POLE C6) (09/05/85)
I ran into so interesting statistics the other day, and seeing as Oded Feingold had made this comment about my previous submission, I thought maybe I'd hit the subject again: >[Black]> After all, there are approximately 40 million Jews worldwide. >[OAF] A standard claim of those who assert the holocaust never > existed. Nobody has ever been able to find 26.5 million > of those Jews. Using Oded's figures, which I assume are reasonably correct, this comes to approximately 13.5 million Jews in the world today. Since the Jewish population tends to shift from country to country over the past few decades, only the world total figures are meaningful. In the 1938 edition of the "World Almanac" of the American Jewish Committee, the world population of Jews was 15,688,259. Assuming that 6 million Jews died in the European Holocaust, that should leave about 9,688,000, right? Allegedly, the worst period of the genocide occurred between 1941 and 1945. Jean-Paul Satre, in his review "Les Temps Modernes," places the death rate at 25,000 per day for 4 1/2 years. (Let's see...that's 4.5 years times 365 days times 25,000....) But we find according to an article by Hanson W. Baldwin, published in the New York Times of 22 February 1948, less than three years from the end of the alleged Holocaust, the world Jewish population was 18,700,000--- a net GAIN of 3 million from the population of 1938! If in fact the population was only 9.69 million at the end of 1945, this indicates that the Jewish population would have to double itself in less than three years. I don't think even the Chinese have that high a birth rate (my apologies to our Chinese neighbors). Talk about a post-war baby boom! Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the population today is 13.5 million, and the population of 1948 was 18.7 million, that figures to a net loss of 5.2 million in 37 years. Quite a difference from the mega-fecundity of 1945-1948. I don't quite understand.... I'm using figures from three Jewish sources, so I can logically assume thet the information is right. There is a claim of a loss of about 42% of the population in a seven year time, followed by an approximate 92% increase over a three-year time. These sources indicate a net population gain of about 20% over ten years, which sounds more like a normal, healthy birth- rate. Maybe I DO understand, and therein lies the problem. --Don Black
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (09/07/85)
> > I ran into so interesting statistics the other day, and seeing as > Oded Feingold had made this comment about my previous submission, I > thought maybe I'd hit the subject again: > > >[Black]> After all, there are approximately 40 million Jews worldwide. > >[OAF] A standard claim of those who assert the holocaust never > > existed. Nobody has ever been able to find 26.5 million > > of those Jews. > > Using Oded's figures, which I assume are reasonably correct, this > comes to approximately 13.5 million Jews in the world today. > > Since the Jewish population tends to shift from country to country > over the past few decades, only the world total figures are meaningful. > > In the 1938 edition of the "World Almanac" of the American Jewish > Committee, the world population of Jews was 15,688,259. > > Assuming that 6 million Jews died in the European Holocaust, that should > leave about 9,688,000, right? Allegedly, the worst period of the genocide > occurred between 1941 and 1945. Jean-Paul Satre, in his review "Les Temps > Modernes," places the death rate at 25,000 per day for 4 1/2 years. > (Let's see...that's 4.5 years times 365 days times 25,000....) > > But we find according to an article by Hanson W. Baldwin, published in > the New York Times of 22 February 1948, less than three years from the end > of the alleged Holocaust, the world Jewish population was 18,700,000--- > a net GAIN of 3 million from the population of 1938! If in fact the > population was only 9.69 million at the end of 1945, this indicates that > the Jewish population would have to double itself in less than three years. > I don't think even the Chinese have that high a birth rate (my apologies > to our Chinese neighbors). Talk about a post-war baby boom! > Don, do you know any Jew? Or you have contact only with "Jewish sources"? I am a half-Jew from Warsaw, Poland. My father and one of his brother survived in USSR. Other uncle survived as a French prisoner of war (Germans were treating POW better than other Jews, although worse than gentile POW's). Before WWII the families were numerous. NO ONE of my kin survived in Poland. I know peple who escaped from concentration camps and Warsaw ghetto. There were very few of those. Before WWII Poland had 3,500,000 Jews, most of them Yiddish speaking and of othodox religion. These people are not there, nor in any other place! If you do not count the emigration before WWII or Jews who were dislocated by the war to USSR, it is difficult to find one of those 3,000,000 unfortunates. Although the number of 6,000,000 is not very well documented, this estimate seems to be accurate up to 5%. As far as different numbers of Jews are concerned, it is unavoidable, if you take into account varying definitions of a Jew. I happen to satisfy some, but not the orthodox one. Nobody counts Jews precisely, especially if a liberal criteria are considered. According to the most frequently cited sources, the number is 15-16 millions. Now, I conjecture that you are the most blantant racist on the net. You may claim that you are merely confused by conflicting data. However: You quote "World Almanac" of Jewish American Committee. It so happens that in every convenience store you may purchase "World Almanac", sponsored not by JAC but by a sindicate of American newspapers. There you may read the number of 15-16 millions which I quoted, and the source given is JAC. Therefore I presume that "World Almanac" which you cite is the prewar edition of the same. This way you you can vary easily compare numbers prepared according to the same criteria. 3 millions less after 45 years is fully compatible with 6 millions loss during WWII. You however access the most obscure data, but "overlook" the ones which are easiest to obtain. I really should not spend any time answering you, but you touched a sore name. If it would be your family, from which only sites of burned buildings remained (no photos, no graves) you would joke a little less about fertility rates. Piotr Berman
adam@npois.UUCP (Adam V. Reed) (09/09/85)
>Don Black writes: > In the 1938 edition of the "World Almanac" of the American Jewish >Committee, the world population of Jews was 15,688,259. > But we find according to an article by Hanson W. Baldwin, published in >the New York Times of 22 February 1948, less than three years from the end >of the alleged Holocaust, the world Jewish population was 18,700,000--- >a net GAIN of 3 million from the population of 1938! If in fact the population >was only 9.69 million at the end of 1945, this indicates that the Jewish >population would have to double itself in less than three years. I don't >think even the Chinese have that high a birth rate (my apologies to our >Chinese neighbors). Talk about a post-war baby boom! Newspapers are published under tight deadlines, so the NYT printing an "8" instead of a "0" in 10,700,000 is understandable. Not much to build a conspiracy on... Other inaccuracies: The "World Almanac" is not an organ of the American Jewish Committee. The "World Almanac" of 1938 cited a 1930 survey conducted by the staff of the "American Jewish Yearbook" as its source. The AJY conducts such a survey every 10 years, although the 1940 survey contains a lot of guesswork due to wartime diffculties. If the AJY figures are plotted over the years, the resulting curve does show a loss of about 5 million in the interval between the 1930 and 1950 surveys (the figure of 6 million includes all victims murdered because of Jewish ancestry, including many who did not identify themselves as Jewish before the Holocaust). Adam Reed ihnp4!npois!adam
dxa@bentley.UUCP (DR Anolick) (09/14/85)
These articles are getting so long, that I feel I should summarize what I have written so that net readers may decide if they wish to read through it. This article contains: - A summary of Mr. Blacks original article on statistics which imply that six million Jews were not murdered in WWII. - A discussion of how statistics may have limited accuracy. - A discussion on some of the statistics used by Mr. Black, including quotes from original sources. In a recent article, Mr. Black uses statistics to support his claim that six million Jews were not murdered during World War II. Rather than reproduce his entire article, below is a summary of the statistics he uses: ONE: 13.5 million Jews in the world today (Statistic from posting by Oded Feingold) TWO: 15,688,259 Jews in the world in 1938 (1938 edition of the "World Almanac") THREE: 9,688,000 Jews in 1945 (if Holocaust is true) (World Almanac (1938) figure minus 6 Million) FOUR: 18,700,000 Jews in 1948 (NY Times 2/22/48, article by Hanson W. Baldwin) Mr. Black then points out that it is unreasonable to believe that the Jewish population would double in three years. (Figures THREE and FOUR) He points out that a populations increase of three million in ten years is reasonable (Figures TWO and FOUR), and that the decline of 5.2 million Jews in 37 years is reasonable (Figures ONE and FOUR). He therefore concludes that figure THREE is invalid and should be discarded. thereby implying that six million did not die in the Holocaust. [Mr. Black, please correct me if this summary is not an accurate representation of what you were trying to say] I'm not going to argue with Mr. Black's conclusions. They are valid conclusions given the above statistics. However, are the statistics valid? I think not. Population statistics usually have a great deal of error. This past week I did some research into population statistics. I am no statistician, so someone with real experience could do a much better job than myself. Basically the conclusion that I came to is that it is impossible for and amateur (like Mr. Black or myself) to prove or disprove the holocaust using only population statistics. There is simply too much uncertainty. All of the sources I found stressed that the listed population figures were only estimates. The 1938 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year, on page 363 lists the following reasons for poor accuracy in population statistics: 1) In various countries ..., no census at all has so far been taken. 2) In some other countries ..., the census does not indicate the religion of the inhabitants. 3) The last census available was not carried out in the same year in all countries, but in different years during the period 1921-1936. One other problem lies with the question, "who is a Jew?" You can get many different answers to that question. By one interpretation of Jewish law, you are a Jew if your mother is a Jew. So, if your mother's mother is Jewish so are you. One census taker may simply ask if you are Jewish. You reply no, since only your grandmother was Jewish. Another may ask you only about your maternal grandmother, and put you as Jewish if she was. On top of all of this, we have the problem of World War Two. With so much upheaval and destruction, it was next to impossible to find valid information on populations of Jews until long after the war was over. So, statistics are not always accurate. Are the ones Mr. Black uses accurate? Mr. Black's exact quote for Statistic TWO above was: > In the 1938 edition of the "World Almanac" of the American Jewish > Committee, the world population of Jews was 15,688,259. When I looked at the 1938 edition of the World Almanac, I found on page 431 that there are 15,315,359 Jews in the world. Numerically, the figure I found is close to Mr. Black's. But if Mr. Black insists on quoting a source, I encourage him to do so accurately. Of course we might be using different World Almanacs. The one I found was published by the New York World-Telegram, A Scripps-Howard Newspaper. It did list the American Jewish committee as the source of its figure, but I could not find a "World Almanac" which was published by the American Jewish Committee. Now lets consider statistic number FOUR above. Mr. Black's exact quote for this statistic was: > But we find according to an article by Hanson W. Baldwin, published in > the New York Times of 22 February 1948, less than three years from the end > of the alleged Holocaust, the world Jewish population was 18,700,000--- I have in front of me a copy of an article entitled "Armies for Palestine" by Hanson W. Baldwin. It can be found in the New York Times of Sunday, February 22, 1948 on page 4, column 2. Perhaps there is another article by H. W. Baldwin in that issue of the Times. If so, I could not find it, so I am assuming that this article is the one referenced by Mr. Black. The Times article is written three months before Israel declares independence and the war with the Arabs begin. Mr. Baldwin is discussing a major issue of the day, which was "the size and capabilities of the opposing forces in the Middle East." In the course of this discussion, the article gives population figures which pertain to the Middle East struggle. After stating the population of Jews in Palestine and other Arab countries in the Middle East, Mr. Baldwin states: "In these countries the Jews are tied by bonds of religion to the rest of the fifteen to eighteen million Jews of the world..." I'd like to point out that this figure of "fifteen to eighteen million" is far different from the figure of 18,700,000 quoted by Mr. Black. Not just in terms of the number, but in terms of accuracy implied. The original figure in the Time's article implies limited accuracy, while Mr. Black's figure implies a greater accuracy. The Time's article does not list the sources for its figures. Since the article is primarily concerned the military capabilities in the Middle East, Jewish population of the world was not as important to the article as the Jewish population of the Middle East. It is therefore my opinion that H. W. Baldwin was probably not concerned with the accuracy of the world figure. (Even if he did wish to use a completely accurate figure, it would have been hard to find, as I explained earlier.) Population statistics are not very accurate. Mr. Black's statistics are even less accurate since they poorly quoted. In the future, Mr. Black would do well to quote his sources correctly, and list complete information on how to verify. (i.e. for the NY Times article, page number, column number, and article title in addition to the author and date. For the World Almanac figure, the correct page number and publisher) So, statistics are like a bikini, Mr. Black. They often cover very little in terms of facts. You have shown a prime example of statistics which have been twisted to show exactly what you wanted, instead of the truth. -- Droyan David Roy Anolick ihnp4!bentley!{droyan|dxa} ^ ^^^ ^^ "All that is necessary for evil to succeed in the world is for enough good people to do nothing."