black@pundit.DEC (DON BLACK DTN 261-2739 MS: NIO/N13 LOC: POLE C6) (09/12/85)
>Newspapers are published under tight deadlines, so the NYT printing >an "8" instead of a "0" in 10,700,000 is understandable. My, my, how convenient to brush off such an embarrassing figure by explaining it as a "mere typographical error." It would be under- standable, if it weren't such an important figure coming from a "reliable" newspaper. I'm sure that Mr. Arthur Sulzberger, the distinguished gentleman who controlled the newspaper back then, would have been VERY understanding about such an important figure. I suspect heads would have rolled had it been reported incorrectly. >Not much to build a conspiracy on... I don't have to build one---Simon Weisenthal and Eili Wiesel have already done that. Unfortunately for them, their Holocaustian fable is like a wedge of Swiss cheese. Full of holes to begin with, and after it's been out in the sunlight too long, it begins to stink. >Other inaccuracies: The "World Almanac" is not >an organ of the American Jewish Committee. The "World Almanac" of 1938 >cited a 1930 survey conducted by the staff of the "American Jewish >Yearbook" as its source. The AJY conducts such a survey every 10 years, >although the 1940 survey contains a lot of guesswork due to wartime >diffculties. If the AJY figures are plotted over the years, the >resulting curve does show a loss of about 5 million in the interval >between the 1930 and 1950 surveys (the figure of 6 million includes all >victims murdered because of Jewish ancestry, including many who did not >identify themselves as Jewish before the Holocaust). [Adam Reed] So, if the World Almanac is not a publication of the AJC, whose publication is it? What were the 1950 figures from the AJY? And if the 1940 figures were so inaccurate, how can we be sure that six million Jews died? And how can we "plot over the years" when we have only three points, one of which is determined to be inaccurate at best? Now, it's fairly obvious that at least SOME Jews died in the concentration camps, from starvation, disease, exhaustion, war-related injuries, and probably some were gassed toward the end of the war. But there is much evidence that does NOT support the systematic extermination of Jews. Alleged eye-witness accounts of the operation of crematoria have been proven time and again to be totally inaccurate. People who allegedly died in camps keep meeting each other alive and well on the streets. Testimony in the Ernst Zundel trial indicates that at least one of the "death camps" had a DANCE HALL! And Mrs. Kitty Hart (of "Kitty: The Return to Auschwitz" fame) claims to have observed the operation of a crematorium/gas chamber while SUNBATHING ON THE GRASS! Please do not insult my intelligence by asking me to believe that prisoners in such camps were given time enough off from slave labor to dance and sunbathe. It sounds more like privileges that would be granted to a paid employee. --Don Black
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (09/19/85)
Before I embark on a refutation of Don Black's stupid comments, I have one question. Does anyone - ANYONE - out there believe the drivel in his latest posting and doubt that the Holocaust happened? If not, perhaps we should just ignore him. * * * * * > >Not much to build a conspiracy on... > > I don't have to build one---Simon Weisenthal and Eili Wiesel have > already done that. Unfortunately for them, their Holocaustian fable is > like a wedge of Swiss cheese. Full of holes to begin with, and after > it's been out in the sunlight too long, it begins to stink. I don't know whether Don Black is truly evil or just very stupid. "Fable", indeed. Here is a simple exercise which I leave for Don Black and for anyone else who may doubt what happened in the Holocaust: Go to the nearest large city with a Jewish community of any significant size. On, say, a Sunday morning, go into the Jewish stores - delicatessens, or bakeries, butchers, whatever. Pick out, at random, a person over 60 who came from Europe. (Yiddish accents aren't hard to spot.) Go over to that person and tell him that you are curious about the Holocaust and what happened. Do you know what you will find? The person you pick will have been lucky. He survived somehow. Perhaps he was fit and spent years at slave labour instead of being sent to the gas chambers. Or perhaps he was able to get out of Europe in time. But now, ask him about his family - parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins. He'll tell you how he only has one brother left, from a family of perhaps 85. Or how he's the only living Jew from his village, which had 250 Jews. The sad fact is, Jews of my generation, whose parents came from Europe after the war, do not have grandparents. Out of 3,000,000 Jews in Poland, for example, 300,000 survived - only the fittest and hardiest. > What were the 1950 figures from the AJY? And if the 1940 figures > were so inaccurate, how can we be sure that six million Jews died? And > how can we "plot over the years" when we have only three points, one of > which is determined to be inaccurate at best? The Germans, who are sticklers for record-keeping, kept detailed records of transports to Auschwitz and other extermination camps. The figure of 6 million is supported by these records. The world Jewish population went from 18 million in 1938 to 12 million in 1945. Today it's about 14.5 million. Go to Yad Vashem, the museum in Jerusalem which is a memorial to the Holocaust. Yad Vashem has embarked upon a program of recording the names of all those killed. They have THREE MILLION names so far. Where available, they also have photographs, ID documents, etc. Considering that entire communities were wiped out so that there is, in many cases, no-one to list the names of those killed, this is quite remarkable. > Now, it's fairly obvious that at least SOME Jews died in the > concentration camps, from starvation, disease, exhaustion, war-related > injuries, and probably some were gassed toward the end of the war. But > there is much evidence that does NOT support the systematic extermination > of Jews. And there is much evidence which does not support the existence of Don Black. Come now. When the Allies liberated the camps in 1945, the horrors were there for all to see. Go pick up any newspaper of the time and read eyewitness accounts from reporters. Both the U.S. and the British military made films of what they found, documenting the horrible sights for posterity. These films are available. > Alleged eye-witness accounts of the operation of crematoria have > been proven time and again to be totally inaccurate. Sure, Don. Is that why Ernst Zundel was convicted, UNANIMOUSLY, by twelve unbiased, non-Jewish ordinary Canadians, of spreading lies in his denial of the Holocaust? Zundel's defense dredged up all of the slime who made idiotic claims about swimming pools and dance halls at Auschwitz. The jury was convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that Zundel was lying and that he knew he was lying in making his claims. The evidence presented at the trial, by those who were there and SAW the gas chambers and crematoria, was convincing and conclusive. > People who allegedly > died in camps keep meeting each other alive and well on the streets. Certainly there were those who didn't know that others survived. My father-in-law didn't find out his brother was alive for 20 years. But tell me, what about his parents? Grandparents? Aunts? Uncles? Cousins? They were killed at Treblinka. > Testimony in the Ernst Zundel trial indicates that at least one of the > "death camps" had a DANCE HALL! And Mrs. Kitty Hart (of "Kitty: The > Return to Auschwitz" fame) claims to have observed the operation of a > crematorium/gas chamber while SUNBATHING ON THE GRASS! Please do not > insult my intelligence by asking me to believe that prisoners in such camps > were given time enough off from slave labor to dance and sunbathe. I certainly won't. There was certainly no dance hall for the prisoners at Auschwitz. The fact that some joker was dredged up to make such a claim hardly rates as "testimony ... rates". If you want to refer to the Zunel trial, I think the conviction speaks for itself. One final question. There is no question that there were large and thriving Jewish communities in every country in central Europe. Where did they all go? -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (09/21/85)
> Before I embark on a refutation of Don Black's stupid comments, > I have one question. Does anyone - ANYONE - out there believe > the drivel in his latest posting and doubt that the Holocaust > happened? If not, perhaps we should just ignore him. [DAVE SHERMAN] Unfortunately, despite claims to the contrary, it is best to show him for what he is as often as possible: an insecure lying flailing ignoramus who adheres to the notion that, if HE has problems, some group (say, the Jews, the liberals, the homosexuals, the Communists, the butchers, the bakers, the candlestickmakers---surely his problems could never be his own fault!) is "responsible" for it, deliberately ruining his life, the glory of his holy country, the world at large, his sex life, etc. It is important to repeatedly show that his statements are about as supported by evidence as a story by the Brothers Grimm. Because one of the important functions of Black's "big lie" technique is the incredibleness of the statements being made. People who use this technique hope that thinking people will find the statements SO outlandish that no one could possibly believe them. Thus they keep saying them unencumbered by demands for proof of their lies, eventually getting significant numbers of people to believe them. ("Hey, nobody stepped forward to prove this guy wrong, so maybe he IS telling the truth after all..") -- "iY AHORA, INFORMACION INTERESANTE ACERCA DE... LA LLAMA!" Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
janw@inmet.UUCP (09/22/85)
> [ !lsuc!dave ] > Before I embark on a refutation of Don Black's stupid comments, > I have one question. Does anyone - ANYONE - out there believe > the drivel in his latest posting and doubt that the Holocaust > happened? If not, perhaps we should just ignore him. Hear, hear ! At last. Why did no one ask that at the beginning of this "controversy " ? > [The refutation, which I consider definitive, follows ] Thank you, Dave. *Now* can we at last heave a sigh and remember Mr. Don Black merely as a bad dream ? Jan Wasilewsky