bwm@ccieng2.UUCP ( Brad Miller) (03/22/84)
Seems to me, prayer in schools is awful close to indoctrination. I thought schools were meant to TEACH. If so, how about teaching about all the people who have been killed in the name of Allah, Christ, God, whatever. Seems to me most problems in the Middle East come down to religion. Rather than perpetuating the problem, we should be educating the children to understand why religion isn't necessary; you can take responsibility for your own actions, and not foist them off on the will of some 'superior' being. Religion has been used FOR TOO LONG as a tool to control the ignorant. -- ...[rlgvax, ritcv]!ccieng5!ccieng2!bwm
jrt@hou5g.UUCP (03/23/84)
[Where's the BEEF ??? ... I'm Hungry! ... munch, munch] <- line eater > From: bwm@ccieng2.UUCP ( Brad Miller) > Seems to me, prayer in schools is awful close to indoctrination. I > thought schools were meant to TEACH. If so, how about teaching about all > the people who have been killed in the name of Allah, Christ, God, whatever. I believe that is already being done in most history classes, however most religions not only don't espouse killing/violence/control. The OPPOSITE is most often the case...i.e. "vengence is MINE sayeth the Lord", "turn your other cheek", "forgive us as we forgive others"..etc,etc. > Seems to me most problems in the Middle East come down to religion. Rather > than perpetuating the problem, we should be educating the children to > understand why religion isn't necessary; you can take responsibility for > your own actions, and not foist them off on the will of some 'superior' > being. Religion has been used FOR TOO LONG as a tool to control the ignorant. The conflicts between what you are talking about and what religions stand for is what a few individuals have done to twist and distort the teachings of religions for their own personal beliefs and purposes. Religions have a fantastic potential for good. Along with that they also have a very big potential for ABUSE. Instead of trying to pretend that religious beliefs don't or shouldn't exist, why not try to EDUCATE people on what the various religions are REALLY trying to say, so that in later life, individuals can make intelligent, informed decisions and can differentiate between what the religion says and some abuser is trying to get you to believe. (** FRODO **) alias hou5g!jrt p.s. I wonder how many of you that are screaming about not allowing people to pray in schools or public places, make even a hint of displeasure known at someone smoking in a non-smoking area where thier smoke has been proven to be harmful to people around them ...... never mind, that's another flame .....
yudelson@aecom.UUCP (Larry Yudelson) (03/23/84)
So the public schools should teach that religion is the root of all evil, that religion is all a gigantic lie, etc. etc. etc.??? Is this any better than what Falwell is trying to slam down our throats? I think that if you look at recent history, you'll see that the effects of small groups feuding against each other is nowhere as dangerous as One Unified Nation with whatever ideology its leader chooses. I have my doubts about the long-term effects of a society where children can play chess but can't pray at school; I also am terrified of a society where everyone must say the same prayer, be it Billy Graham's or Bertrand Russell's. Perhaps the solution is what I followed: private schools. I was able to play chess and pray before school; both my chess game and religious life are the better for it. Perhaps a free-market approach to education would be a lot better approach than a big-brother approach to both education or religion. I have more to say on the subject, but I might as well wait for the flames to roll in, to mismangle a metaphor "Beware the Frumiest Bandersnatch" Larry Yudelson
jrl@harpo.UUCP (jrl) (03/23/84)
With all this talk of prayer in the schools, let us not forget
what Sigmund Freud said in one of his books (I think it was Totem & Taboo)
He referred to religion as "THE OPIATE OF THE MASSES" .
While prayer has no place in school (public). There should be allowed
a time for silent meditation where students can pray to Christ, Buddah,
Jehova, or the dollar. Rather than try to force children to pray there
should be more of an effort to teach them to think for themselves. But I
keep forgetting that the function of a school is not to educate, but to
mold children into docile, productive taxpayers to be led down the
consumer path by the Judas goat of television.
Years ago I knew a family that was scorned by the neighbors because
their child had no religion. What the parents did was to expose the child
to many forms of religious worship and teachings and left it up to the
child to choose his own faith. saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (03/24/84)
Wasn't it Karl Marx who said that education is the opium of the masses?
Sophie Quigley
...!{decvax,allegra}!watmath!saquigleydebray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (03/24/84)
aecom!yudelson (from a pro-school-prayer viewpoint): > So the public schools should teach that religion is the > root of all evil, that religion is all a gigantic lie, etc. > etc. etc.??? No. It's not for the schools to take a position on religion. (They seem to have a hard enough time teaching such well-understood subjects as Math and English! :-) ) Religion is the business of the church and the individual families. Surely parents who feel so strongly about their kids praying can have them spare a minute for prayer at home before rushing off to school? Religion seems to be one of the most divisive forces at work in society (witness Lebanon, North Ireland), and schools would probably be better off not coming down on either side of the fence. Let them teach the youngsters how to THINK, and have them then weigh the evidence and make up their minds for themselves. -- Saumya Debray, SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {cbosgd, decvax, ihnp4, mcvax, cmcl2}!philabs \ {amd70, akgua, decwrl, utzoo}!allegra > !sbcs!debray {teklabs, hp-pcd, metheus}!ogcvax / CSNet: debray@suny-sbcs@CSNet-Relay
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (03/26/84)
][ No, Karl baby said Religion was the opiate of the masses.
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/26/84)
*** 26 March 1984. >> Brad Miller (ccieng2!bwm): >> "Religion has been used FAR TOO LONG as a tool to control >> the ignorant." But Brad, hasn't it been stated time and again that religion is the 'opiate of the masses'? Public schools today are being battered by right-wing fundamentalists' desires to have THEIR particular values taught to the exclusion of others'. This is not right, as freedom of speech and thought are in danger of being stifled. Has anyone seriously thought about the parallels between the Moral Majority's attempt to coerce America's children via 'prayer in schools' (which is all a political crock, anyway) and Lenin's statement "Give me the children for four years (long enough to get my particular beliefs in), and I will have them for life." ? Grab Richard Mitchell's book "The Graves of Academe" if you are at all interested. Comments welcomed, to the net or to me directly. -- -- cheers, Mike Simpson, BBN msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA) {decvax,ima,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet) 617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/26/84)
***
26 March 84
From: Larry Yudelson (aecom!yudelson)
"So, public schools should teach that religion is the root
of all evil, that religion is a gigantic lie, etc? ... "
The first paragraph sounds more like a momentary burst of
paranoia. I don't think that public schools should be teaching
religion at all. If they MUST, have them teach ABOUT many
different kinds , without proffering one as "the RIGHT one", and
let the kids make up their own minds.
"I have my doubts about the long-term effects of a
society where children can play chess but can't pray at school; I
am also terrified of a society where everyone must say the same
prayer, be it Billy Graham's or Bertrand Russell's."
I don't claim to follow the second paragraph very well --
although the thought of everyone saying the same prayer scares
me, I don't see where praying in schools is going to be the
panacea that fundamentalists claim it to be. Besides, there will
be prayer in schools for as long as you have junior high algebra
[ :-) ].
"Perhaps a free-market approach to education would be a
lot better approach than a big-brother approach to both education
or religion."
I agree with the last statement totally. Given a
free-market approach, each parent can customize his/her child's
education to preference.
Comments welcomed, to the net or to me directly.
--
-- cheers,
Mike Simpson, BBN
msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA)
{decvax,ima,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet)
617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)tpkq@charm.UUCP (Timothy Kerwin) (03/27/84)
^
>> Wasn't it Karl Marx who said that education is the opium of the masses?
No, it wasn't. Marx described RELIGION as the "opium of the people."piet@mcvax.UUCP (Piet Beertema) (03/28/84)
True prayers do it in silence.
--
Piet Beertema, CWI, Amsterdam
...{decvax,philabs}!mcvax!piethom@hocda.UUCP (H.MORRIS) (03/29/84)
>>Hey, baby, how wrong is Terkel? After all, look at the state of the >>hacker's physical well being during the Raygun administration as >>opposed to the well being of Joe American. Hey, my salary is up some >>impressive amount, I'll tell you that. Financially, Ronnie has done >>me ok. His other policies? Well, I'd take a Ronnie over Jimmy the >>noodle Carter any day, at least you know where he stands and the >>economy doesn't go to hell in a handbasket. I don't know that most >>the other losers who are running would do any better. >> >>If only we could get hizonner the mayor Ed Koch of New York, he's a >>great politician, he's my hero. He'd make a good president, but he's >>already said that he's never gonna be a politician except to be mayor >>of the great city of New York. I can't blame him. If we're stuck with >>the losers that the Dems are running, I don't see that Reagan will be >>any worse. No, I don't want to fry in a nuke blast, but I still don't >>see the front-running Democretins being any improvement over Reagan in >>terms of foreign relations, after all, there's more to good foreign >>relations than just being a wimp. Likewise, there's more to solving the >>nation's other problems than being a wimp. >> >>And yes, look at all the inane yumps around. You can usually find them >>at new wave avant garde pickup places. Oh, I wish I was cool like >>that. They all look like that loser in the Xerox ads on TV who goes >>around trying to outwimp Alan Alda. Studs might be rude, but he ain't >>wrong. (Feel free to forward this to him.) >> >>I don't read net.politics, I find that group especially inane, if you >>want to reach me, post to net.flame, where I find the discussions more >>palatable. >> >> Your faithful ane yumpservantzombeing, >> Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274 >> I have to admit there's something to Terkel's argument.
covert@castor.DEC (John Covert) (03/29/84)
When I was a student in the Free State of Bavaria in the mid-sixties, every school divided its students into Roman Catholic classes and Evangelical (Lutheran) classes. The curriculum was the same; which class you were in determined the prayer recited each morning and who taught the religion classes. Religion is firmly established by the state in other areas as well. A Church tax is deducted from your paycheck unless you formally withdraw from the Church. The following days are holidays (businesses and stores are closed) in Bavaria (and most of them in other parts of Germany and many other European countries as well): New Year's Day, Epiphany (Heilige Drei Koenige), Good Friday, Easter Monday, May Day, Ascension Day, Whitmonday (Monday after Pentecost), Feast of Corpus Christi, Day of German Unity, Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, All Saints Day (day after Halloween), Day of Atonement, First and Second days of Christmas.
goodrum@unc.UUCP (Cloyd Goodrum) (10/18/85)
Expires: References: Sender: Keywords: Sheldon Vanauken (author of "A Severe Mercy" and "Under The Mercy") has come up with what Southern Partisan magazine calls "the best idea yet to restore prayer in the public schools." Vanauken suggests that every public school in the country begin the day with the words "God save the United States and this honorable school", just as the Supreme Court begins its day with the words "God save the United States and this honorable court". If the practice were challenged, the court could do one of three things: (a) Rule that the practice is constitutional, since it is nearly identical to the practice of the Supreme Court. (b) Admit that it had been mistakenly indulging in an unconstitutional practice for years. (c) Rule that substituting the word "school" for "court" transforms the invocation from a harmless piece of rhetoric into a prayer. (Which would take a lot of fancy judicial prestidigitation.) Cloyd Goodrum III
arnold@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Kenneth C R C Arnold) (10/23/85)
In article <344@unc.unc.UUCP> goodrum@unc.UUCP (Cloyd Goodrum) writes: >[Sheldon] Vanauken suggests that every public school in the country begin the >day with the words "God save the United States and this honorable school", >just as the Supreme Court begins its day with the words "God save the United >States and this honorable court". > >The court could do one of three things: > >(a) Rule that the practice is constitutional, since it is nearly identical >to the practice of the Supreme Court. > >(b) Admit that it had been mistakenly indulging in an unconstitutional >practice for years. > >(c) Rule that substituting the word "school" for "court" transforms the >invocation from a harmless piece of rhetoric into a prayer. (Which would take >a lot of fancy judicial prestidigitation.) > > Cloyd Goodrum III Or (d) Do what it would do, which is rule that adults are more capable of choosing their own beliefs than children, and are therefore in substantially less need of protection than children. Which is what they have based all their rulings on school prayer on. Has Mr. V. read one? Maybe he should before advising people to do the ridiculous in the name of alleged constitutionality. Not that I think opening US Gov't procedings in the name of God is constitutional either. But that isn't what they've been saying over the years, as anyone who payed attention to their actual opinions (rather than their own) might be able to figure out. Ken Arnold
pmd@cbsck.UUCP (Paul M. Dubuc) (10/23/85)
> Sheldon Vanauken (author of "A Severe Mercy" and "Under The Mercy") >has come up with what Southern Partisan magazine calls "the best idea yet >to restore prayer in the public schools." > > Vanauken suggests that every public school in the country begin the >day with the words "God save the United States and this honorable school", >just as the Supreme Court begins its day with the words "God save the United >States and this honorable court". > > If the practice were challenged, the court could do one of three things: > >(a) Rule that the practice is constitutional, since it is nearly identical >to the practice of the Supreme Court. > >(b) Admit that it had been mistakenly indulging in an unconstitutional >practice for years. > >(c) Rule that substituting the word "school" for "court" transforms the >invocation from a harmless piece of rhetoric into a prayer. (Which would take >a lot of fancy judicial prestidigitation.) > > Cloyd Goodrum III (d) Invoke the words of Chief Justice Warren Burger: "We're the Supreme Court. We can do anything we want." (Similar to option 'a' above. If the Court does it it must be constitutional.) :-) -- Paul Dubuc cbsck!pmd
jimi@scirtp.UUCP (Jim Ingram) (10/31/85)
> > Sheldon Vanauken (author of "A Severe Mercy" and "Under The Mercy") > >has come up with what Southern Partisan magazine calls "the best idea yet > >to restore prayer in the public schools." > > > > Vanauken suggests that every public school in the country begin the > >day with the words "God save the United States and this honorable school", > >just as the Supreme Court begins its day with the words "God save the United > >States and this honorable court". > > > > If the practice were challenged, the court could do one of three things: > > > >(a) Rule that the practice is constitutional, since it is nearly identical > >to the practice of the Supreme Court. > > > >(b) Admit that it had been mistakenly indulging in an unconstitutional > >practice for years. > > > >invocation from a harmless piece of rhetoric into a prayer. (Which would take > >a lot of fancy judicial prestidigitation.) I don't see the connection between what a school does and what a court, Congress, or other government body does. Could the previous poster enlighten, please? This sounds like the thoughts of someone desperate to ram school prayer down innocent, helpless throats. Why do people want to do that, anyway? > > > > Cloyd Goodrum III > > (d) Invoke the words of Chief Justice Warren Burger: "We're the Supreme > Court. We can do anything we want." (Similar to option 'a' above. If the > Court does it it must be constitutional.) :-) > -- > > Paul Dubuc cbsck!pmd -- The views expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of any other individuals or organizations. Jim Ingram {decvax, akgua, ihnp4}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!jimi SCI Systems, Inc. P.O. Box 12557, RTP, NC 27709 919 549 8334