orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) (12/04/85)
nrh asks: > > The subject WASN'T "degradation and death", so Jan wasn't obligated to > mention it. Perhaps there's MORE "degradation and death" under the > current government than there would be under the Contras. You have > some way of knowing that we don't (perhaps you have some way of > quantifying "degradation")? Yes, there *is* a way to at least approximately measure the degradation and death caused a)before the Sandinistas revolution b)after the Sandinistas revolution c)after the Contras began their war This is the evidence provided by Amnesty International and other human rights organizations. Before the Sandinistas overthrew Somoza his National Guardsmen were responsible for hundreds of deaths, torture and imprisonment for political opposition. This was one reason even the US government under Carter pulled away from fully backing Somoza, just as we also pulled away from support for Guatemala for similar human rights violations. Before and for about a year after the revolution, the Sandinistas were responsible for some human rights abuses. But even at their height they never approached the level they reached under Somoza. Furthermore according to Amnesty International these dropped to almost nothing after the Sandinistas were in power for a time. The forced relocation of the Meskito Indians was a mistake and involved coercion. However the Sandinistas concluded an agreement with the Meskito Indians some months ago. Since the Contra war stepped up the contras have been responsible for thousands of deaths. Given that the contras leadership includes a large percentage of Somoza's former National Guardsmen who were largely responsible for one of the world's worst human rights records, I would expect they would continue in that mold after continuing a bloody rise to power. One of the reasons I oppose violence as a means of social change, even for good ends, is that it tends to promote the careers and power of those who are the most violent: the Pinochets, Stalins, and others who grab power after violent takeovers. tim sevener whuxn!orb
ekrell@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/08/85)
In article <417@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >Since the Contra war stepped up the contras have been responsible >for thousands of deaths. the same goes for the Sandinistas. The TELEVISA Mexican evening news had a story a couple of weeks ago on cold blood murders by members of the sandinista army. Their journalist interviewed several campesinos in a remote area in Nicaragua and they described how members of the army would storm their towns and kill their families without any reason. The journalist first thought they were describing the contras but the campesinos told him the contras didn't harm them, "son los soldados...", it's the soldiers. -- Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department ekrell@ucla-locus.arpa ..!{sdcrdcf,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!ekrell
myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Latitudinarian Lobster) (12/09/85)
> the same goes for the Sandinistas. The TELEVISA Mexican evening news had > a story a couple of weeks ago on cold blood murders by members of the > sandinista army. Their journalist interviewed several campesinos in > a remote area in Nicaragua and they described how members of the army > would storm their towns and kill their families without any reason. > The journalist first thought they were describing the contras but the > campesinos told him the contras didn't harm them, "son los soldados...", > it's the soldiers. > -- > Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department Considering the history of the Nicaraguan Revolution, it makes no sense for the EPS to be committing such atrocities, so at this point I will discard it as untrue propaganda. Remember that the revolution was fought to get rid of just such behavior by the GN. The Sandinistas know full well the lessons of Vietnam, El Salvador, etc. -- indiscriminant killing will not defeat guerrillas. This is the lesson of Nicaraguan history as well. Seems to be alot of pressure to produce stories painting the Sandinistas as evil rather than just politically misguided. Out of curiosity, what ``remote area'' was this supposed to have occurred in? Jeff Myers
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (12/11/85)
In article <417@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >Yes, there *is* a way to at least approximately measure the >degradation and death caused >a)before the Sandinistas revolution >b)after the Sandinistas revolution >c)after the Contras began their war Really, this doesn't tell us anything about what the contras would do. Even that portion of the contras which were formerly Samozaist (certainly not all, as far as I can tell not even a majority) deny that they would reinstate such policies. (I don't much believe *them*, but I have rather more confidence in the remainder than in the Sandinistas.) >One of the reasons I oppose >violence as a means of social change, even for good ends, is >that it tends to promote the careers and power of those who are >the most violent: the Pinochets, Stalins, and others who >grab power after violent takeovers. You forget to mention the Sandinistas. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108
ekrell@ucla-cs.UUCP (12/12/85)
In article <1775@uwmacc.UUCP> myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Latitudinarian Lobster) writes: > >Considering the history of the Nicaraguan Revolution, it makes no sense for >the EPS to be committing such atrocities, so at this point I will discard it >as untrue propaganda. Here we go again. Whenever there are facts that don't fit with one's ideas, they HAVE to be false. Daniel Schneider was trying to discredit that news report by drawing a simplistic comparison to a pro-contra fund raising event. See, no matter what David or you say, facts can not be changed. I am convinced the news report was faithful, maybe because the Mexicans are anti-US in their central american policies and they have no reason to lie. I have been watching The evening Mexican news for years now and as far as I have seen, they are among the most credible and responsible news programs. Anyone who watches them can confirm this. We have to learn to be good loosers as well as good winners. The Sandinistas are not sacred cows. They kill in cold blood just as the contras do. -- Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department ekrell@ucla-locus.arpa ..!{sdcrdcf,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!ekrell