janw@inmet.UUCP (12/02/85)
>[aouriri@ittvax] >In view of last week's spy scandal (An american jew spying for >Israel, against the US) a question should be raised: >Are american jews allegiant to the US ? or to Israel? >The fact that some of them are ready to betray their country >the US, for Israel -even when the US is the strongest ally >and defender of Israel- sheds some doubts as to their allegiance. >Any comments?? Uh-uh. And if a spy ring is uncovered whose members are WASPs, does it raise questions in your mind on whether WASP real allegiance is to Russia ? You don't make your case stronger with this line of reasoning. It is part of the American tradition that ties of sympathy to the Old Country - be it Italy, Ireland or Greece - are compatible with loyalty to the USA. For many Jews, Israel occupies the same emotional niche. That some individuals commit crimes has nothing to do with the issue.
jim@ISM780B.UUCP (12/02/85)
>/* ---------- "A question of Allegiance" ---------- */ >In view of last week's spy scandal (An american jew spying for >Israel, against the US) a question should be raised: >Are american jews allegiant to the US ? or to Israel? >The fact that some of them are ready to betray their country >the US, for Israel -even when the US is the strongest ally >and defender of Israel- sheds some doubts as to their allegiance. >Any comments?? Look, this was *one individual*! There is this ridiculous tendency to lump people together, whether they are Jews or Marxists or Christians or blacks or whites or men or women or whatever, and it ISN'T VALID. People are individuals. This particular guy was a spy in the pay of Israel; that is what he did for a living. Almost all other Jews are not. Most Jews, regardless of their feelings about Israel, have a reverence for law. Their U.S. citizenship defines their responsibility. I don't have much allegiance to anyone, and I think the anti-semite horn gets blown far too readily, but I find this idea VERY DANGEROUS. Americans of Japanese ancestry lost their homes and possessions and were INTERNED in concentration camps during WWII just because of their appearance. Many of them had never been to Japan and some didn't even know Japanese. Despite the internment a number of them formed an army unit that was *the most highly decorated unit of WWII*. The internment was totally *unjustified*. If you want to talk about Israeli spying policy toward its allies, fine, but when you lump all American Jews together you are talking about *me*. STAMP OUT RACISM AND BIGOTRY!. Treat EVERY human being as an individual! -- Jim Balter (ima!jim)
mahoney@bach.DEC (12/03/85)
---------------------Reply to mail dated 30-NOV-1985 20:21------------------- >In view of last week's spy scandal (An american jew spying for >Israel, against the US) a question should be raised: >Are american jews allegiant to the US ? or to Israel? >The fact that some of them are ready to betray their country >the US, for Israel -even when the US is the strongest ally >and defender of Israel- sheds some doubts as to their allegiance. It sounds like the same arguments to round up the Japenese at the beginning of WWII it is sick. One just because someone is Jewish does not even mean that he supports Isreal. Two the man who spied for Isreal did it for money that is greed. I do not condone what Isreal did but it is a fact of life. WE spy on them they spy on us they just got caught. I am sure that the British the French and numerous other allies do the same they have just not been caught. Governments want to know what other governments are up to so they do their best to find out. Again I do not think it is right but I am sure the Isrealis and any other government that can afford it has spies in the US. Brian Mahoney "A conservative is someone who cares more about themselves. A liberal is someone who cares more about other people. A moderate is someone to confused to know who to care about"
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (12/07/85)
Subject: Re: A question of Allegiance >> In view of last week's spy scandal (An american jew spying for >> Israel, against the US) a question should be raised: >> Are american jews allegiant to the US ? or to Israel? >> The fact that some of them are ready to betray their country >> the US, for Israel -even when the US is the strongest ally >> and defender of Israel- sheds some doubts as to their allegiance. >> Any comments?? > Only one: The above trash is racist. If I were sure of the > ethnic heritage of its poster, I could make the same inference > about every member of his nationality because, after all, if > "some of them" are bigots then they *all* are, right? > ken perlow I partially agree. So what if we find some American jews who might spy against the U.S.? So why don't we ask the following more interesting questions: Why has the government of Israel chosen to spy against its closest ally and defender? Isn't that the kind of thing you expect from an enemy or at least an unfriendly government? Would Israel risk a very close, beneficial relationship with the U.S. over a silly spy game if it truly expected a more critical reaction from the U.S.? Farzin Mokhtarian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Logic is an organized way to go wrong - with confidence."
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (12/09/85)
Farzin Mokhtarian writes: > Why has the government of Israel chosen to spy against its closest ally and > defender? Isn't that the kind of thing you expect from an enemy or at least > an unfriendly government? Would Israel risk a very close, beneficial > relationship with the U.S. over a silly spy game if it truly expected a more > critical reaction from the U.S.? Allies always spy on each other. {name-your-favorite-country} spies on us too (even if your favorite country is us!) and we spy on them.
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (12/09/85)
> Why are only the Jews charged with being unfaithful Americans? > Are all Irish-Americans suspect because some support the IRA > in violation of US law? > There are always those who will blame all Jews for the misdeeds > of individual Jews. There are always those will blame all Jews for the misdeeds of anybody. mark
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (12/16/85)
>> Why has the government of Israel chosen to spy against its closest ally and >> defender? Isn't that the kind of thing you expect from an enemy or at least >> an unfriendly government? Would Israel risk a very close, beneficial >> relationship with the U.S. over a silly spy game if it truly expected a more >> critical reaction from the U.S.? Warren Burstein (warren@pluto.UUCP) writes: > Allies always spy on each other. > {name-your-favorite-country} spies on us too (even if your favorite > country is us!) and we spy on them. Do you mean to imply that it is acceptable behaviour for allies to spy on each other? If so, why did we see a display of anger and disapproval from the U.S. state department followed by a formal apology by Israel? Or was that just for mass consumption? Farzin Mokhtarian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "... Nor all your pity nor wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a line, Nor all your Tears wash out a word of it."
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (12/20/85)
>> Why has the government of Israel chosen to spy against >> its closest ally and defender? ------------------------------ Oded Feingold writes: > 1. It needs certain information, for example on the capabilities of > Arab armies armed with American weapons, or activities of the American > 6th fleet. Example: Avoiding US patrols while enroute to/from Tunis. It wasn't information the lack of which would jeopardize the security of Israel. If so, Israel could have demonstrated that and obtained the info thru normal channels. Surely the U.S. would not jeopardize the security of Israel by witholding information. So I am not sure how much they "needed" the information. > 2. "Closest" isn't quantified. Are you implying US and Israeli > interests are identical? That Israel is a US puppet (or the reverse)? No, I think a good way to measure that is by the volume of military and financial aid given to Israel by the U.S. Shall I quantify that? OK. During the fiscal years 1981-1983, U.S. official assistance has averaged over $3400 *each year* for each Israeli family of five. Since 1965, the U.S. has given three times the military assistance to Israel alone than to 19 other middle eastern states combined. >> Isn't that the kind of thing you expect from an enemy or at >> least an unfriendly government? ------------------------------ > No, I expect everyone to spy on everyone else. The US spies on > Israel, too. I am sorry. I don't know why I assumed being allies implies trust! >> ... if it truly expected a more critical reaction from the U.S.? ------------------------------ > Finally, the hidden Mokhtarianism bubbles to the surface. Gee, that's very nice of you Oded. Note the "ism" after my name. I am finally prominant enough to have my own school of thought! That's exciting! > "Israel > has the US in its nasty little pocket, so it knows we haven't the guts > to oppose it." (You see, Farzin, your talent for leaving a snide > interpretation open is only exceeded by my penchant for making said > interpretation.) Good for you and your penchant, Oded, but I think the following "snide" interpretation is much clearer: "Continued U.S. aid plays a crucial role in the economy and defence of Israel. These people (Israel) don't seem to be worried about stealing (information) from a guy who has been so generous to them. Maybe they have influential friends who let them get away with too much." > Good shot, though, Mr. Mokhtarian - you sure can leave a sour taste. Yes, it was a good shot and I am not the one who left a sour taste. Farzin Mokhtarian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "I don't come here for the meat," said the dog, "I come here to bark."