franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (12/08/85)
[Not food] The only problem with this article is that it assumes the U.S. to be way over on the right hand side of the political spectrum. There is another insult (besides calling one's opponent a Communist) which has been used almost as often in this country, at least in the last 40 years. That is to call one's opponent a Fascist. Now can we dispense with name calling and just discuss the issues? Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108
lkk@teddy.UUCP (12/09/85)
In article <850@mmintl.UUCP> franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >The only problem with this article is that it assumes the U.S. to be way >over on the right hand side of the political spectrum. There is another >insult (besides calling one's opponent a Communist) which has been used >almost as often in this country, at least in the last 40 years. That is >to call one's opponent a Fascist. This brings up an interesting point. Sure I've heard "fascist" used as an epithet in this country, but primarily by fringe radicals. I HAVE NEVER HEARD A MAINSTREAM POLITICIAN CRITICIZE ANYONE FOR BEING A FASCIST. I HAVE HEARD MANY POLITICIANS USE THE WORDS "COMMUNIST" AND "MARXIST" AS NEGATIVE EPITHETS. Can someone provide a counter example (in the past 20 years?). -- Sport Death, (USENET) ...{decvax | ihnp4!mit-eddie}!genrad!panda!lkk Larry Kolodney (INTERNET) lkk@mit-mc.arpa -------- Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. - Helen Keller
seifert@hammer.UUCP (Snoopy) (12/13/85)
In article <1783@teddy.UUCP> lkk@teddy.UUCP (Larry K. Kolodney) writes: > This brings up an interesting point. Sure I've heard "fascist" used as an > epithet in this country, but primarily by fringe radicals. > > I HAVE NEVER HEARD A MAINSTREAM POLITICIAN CRITICIZE ANYONE FOR BEING > A FASCIST. Of course not! Why would they criticize themselves? Snoopy (Not a fringe radical, but rather a Marxist of the Groucho variety) tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy
orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) (12/16/85)
> The only problem with this article is that it assumes the U.S. to be way > over on the right hand side of the political spectrum. There is another > insult (besides calling one's opponent a Communist) which has been used > almost as often in this country, at least in the last 40 years. That is > to call one's opponent a Fascist. > > Now can we dispense with name calling and just discuss the issues? > Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka 1)I have tried to refrain from name-calling. But some others on the net accuse those who want to stop the arms race and preparations for War on both sides of "wishing to run the Commie flag up the flagpole". This is nothing new as I have pointed out: Sakharov and Lech Walesa, who criticize their own communist countries' policies are accused of being "unpatriotic" too. 2)Tell me, Frank, when were "fascists" or "suspected fascists" either sent to jail or blacklisted for the rest of their careers as "Reds" were in the 1950's, or as "Reds' were during the Palmer Raids during WW I? While this country certainly has a very strong progressive tradition which dates back to such forward-looking thinkers as Jefferson and other founding fathers, it is also the bastion of unrestrained capitalism. As such there have been no qualms about massacring union members or jailing socialists as was done during the Palmer Raids. To ignore the very real legacy of red-baiting in this country would be rather foolish. On the other hand when our own President quotes from the John Birch Society as an authoritative source on Lenin very few give it a second thought. Unfortunately there is a genuine streak of right-wing hysteria deep in our national consciousness promulgated by years of propaganda. This fear has been invoked many times to oppose social change, as it is being invoked now. tim sevener whuxn!orb
ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) (12/18/85)
In article <441@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >> The only problem with this article is that it assumes the U.S. to be way >> over on the right hand side of the political spectrum. There is another >> insult (besides calling one's opponent a Communist) which has been used >> almost as often in this country, at least in the last 40 years. That is >> to call one's opponent a Fascist. >> >> Now can we dispense with name calling and just discuss the issues? >> Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka > >1)I have tried to refrain from name-calling. ... >2)Tell me, Frank, when were "fascists" or "suspected fascists" either sent > to jail or blacklisted for the rest of their careers as "Reds" were > in the 1950's, or as "Reds' were during the Palmer Raids during WW I? World War II, the detention of Japanese-Americans. Not *quite* jail but close. -- If you know the alphabet up to 'k', you can teach it up to 'k'. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa ...allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_akaa
lkk@teddy.UUCP (12/19/85)
In article <1468@jhunix.UUCP> ins_akaa@jhunix.ARPA (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) writes: >In article <441@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >>2)Tell me, Frank, when were "fascists" or "suspected fascists" either sent >> to jail or blacklisted for the rest of their careers as "Reds" were >> in the 1950's, or as "Reds' were during the Palmer Raids during WW I? > >World War II, the detention of Japanese-Americans. Not *quite* jail but close. This isn't a fair analogy. The Japanese-Americans were imprisoned soley because they were Japanese, not because of suspected right-wing politics. The internments were due to the racist viewpoint that all Americans of Japanese descent held allegiance to Japan, regardless of political viewpoint. Next example? -- Sport Death, (USENET) ...{decvax | ihnp4!mit-eddie}!genrad!panda!lkk Larry Kolodney (INTERNET) lkk@mit-mc.arpa -------- Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. - Helen Keller
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (12/20/85)
In article <441@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >> The only problem with this article is that it assumes the U.S. to be way >> over on the right hand side of the political spectrum. There is another >> insult (besides calling one's opponent a Communist) which has been used >> almost as often in this country, at least in the last 40 years. That is >> to call one's opponent a Fascist. >> >> Now can we dispense with name calling and just discuss the issues? >> Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka > >1)I have tried to refrain from name-calling. But some others on the net > accuse those who want to stop the arms race and preparations for War > on both sides of "wishing to run the Commie flag up the flagpole". > This is nothing new as I have pointed out: Sakharov and Lech Walesa, > who criticize their own communist countries' policies are accused of > being "unpatriotic" too. I didn't accuse you of name-calling, although it may have sounded like it. In fact, I generally find your articles quite civil, even when (as is rather frequent) I disagree. I haven't noticed many people accusing anyone here of being communists; what there are can be better ignored, I think. >2)Tell me, Frank, when were "fascists" or "suspected fascists" either sent > to jail or blacklisted for the rest of their careers as "Reds" were > in the 1950's, or as "Reds' were during the Palmer Raids during WW I? I don't know if the actions taken quite meet your criteria, but it certainly wasn't safe to claim to be a Fascist in the middle 40's. I did not claim that government action had fallen equally on left and right; it hasn't. Nor did I claim that the government, through the years, has been perfectly centrist. It has in fact had a right-wing bias; but it has, overall, been more centrist than right-wing. > While this country certainly has a very strong progressive tradition > which dates back to such forward-looking thinkers as Jefferson and other > founding fathers, it is also the bastion of unrestrained capitalism. > As such there have been no qualms about massacring union members > or jailing socialists as was done during the Palmer Raids. This last sentence is just false. These events occurred, but they prompted strong reactions (especially the former -- nations become less rational in wartime. There was little resistance to interning Japanese-Americans in WWII, either). Some of us think capitalism is progressive. If by unre- strained capitalism you mean free to use force against peaceful enemies, that has happened here; but it has never been accepted. The unions at that point were not above a little violence themselves. Strikebreakers were routinely beaten up. Even today, scabs must fear personal violence. Now, I do think the unions were mostly right in the first half of this century, and I do not excuse the violence against them. But it is intellectual dishonesty to look only at the violence against them, and ignore the violence they committed. > On the other hand when our own President quotes from the > John Birch Society as an authoritative source on Lenin very few give > it a second thought. Very few people give a second thought to anything our current president says. On the whole, I am inclined to regard this as fortunate. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108
ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) (12/20/85)
In article <1843@teddy.UUCP> lkk@teddy.UUCP (Larry K. Kolodney) writes: >In article <1468@jhunix.UUCP> ins_akaa@jhunix.ARPA (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) writes: >>In article <441@whuts.UUCP> orb@whuts.UUCP (SEVENER) writes: >>>2)Tell me, Frank, when were "fascists" or "suspected fascists" either sent >>> to jail or blacklisted for the rest of their careers as "Reds" were >>> in the 1950's, or as "Reds' were during the Palmer Raids during WW I? >>World War II, the detention of Japanese-Americans. Not *quite* jail but close. >This isn't a fair analogy. The Japanese-Americans were imprisoned soley >because they were Japanese, not because of suspected right-wing politics. >The internments were due to the racist viewpoint that all Americans of >Japanese descent held allegiance to Japan, regardless of political >viewpoint. So why was that a reason to imprison them? People may have thought that Chinese-Americans owed allegiance to China, but they weren't imprisoned, because at the time few people thought there was anything wrong with allegiance to China. The imprisonment was due to the racist viewpoint that Japanese Americans all "held allegiance to Japan" but that essentially meant that they were accused of working for a right-wing government. The accusation was racist, but it still meant that they were accused of being right-wingers; the racism was in the assumption used to deduce that they were right-wingers. -- If you know the alphabet up to 'k', you can teach it up to 'k'. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa ...allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_akaa
lkk@teddy.UUCP (12/28/85)
In article <1482@jhunix.UUCP> ins_akaa@jhunix.ARPA (Kenneth Adam Arromdee) writes: [Talking about the internment of the Japanese during WWII as a form of POLITICAL intolerance.] > >So why was that a reason to imprison them? People may have thought that >Chinese-Americans owed allegiance to China, but they weren't imprisoned, >because at the time few people thought there was anything wrong with >allegiance to China. The imprisonment was due to the racist viewpoint >that Japanese Americans all "held allegiance to Japan" but that essentially >meant that they were accused of working for a right-wing government. >The accusation was racist, but it still meant that they were accused of >being right-wingers; the racism was in the assumption used to deduce that >they were right-wingers. Nonsense. Japan had a right wing government for decades before the internment, but there were no interments then. The interment only happened because we were in the midsts of a war with Japan. The particular political ideology of the government was irrelevant. Communists were imprisoned BECAUSE THERE IDEOLOGY MADE THEM SUSPECT. Japanese were imprisoned BECAUSE THE SHAPE OF THEIR BODIES MADE THEM SUSPECT. The two issues are entirely unrelated (except as general cases of irrational fear). -- Sport Death, (USENET) ...{decvax | ihnp4!mit-eddie}!genrad!panda!lkk Larry Kolodney (INTERNET) lkk@mit-mc.arpa -------- Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. - Helen Keller