berke@ucla-cs.UUCP (11/26/85)
In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >Yakim Martillo writes: >> >> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their >> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by >> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam >> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution >> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. >... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. > >I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off I believe that the above is also incorrect. The mast millenium certainly includes the middle ages. I believe it is because of the religious tolerance of the Islamic world that we call Arabic numerals Arabic. I believe they were originally Hindu, and the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the prevention of religious liberty. I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under the Inquisition, and I'm under the impression that it was through the Jewish scholars who studied with Arab mathematicians that the Christian world ended up receiving the ancient Greek and Hindu mathematics. Also, I believe pogrom is a Yiddish word derived from the Russian for devastation (Webster's Collegiate) and not really appropriately used here. Peter Berke
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (11/29/85)
> the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests > allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, > the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the > prevention of religious liberty. > > I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under > the Inquisition, ... > > Peter Berke There is no doubt that in the past the Arabs exhibited more tolerance towards the Jews than the Christian world. However, in the 20th century, with the advent of Arab nationalism, oppression and intolerance against Jews grew. An indication of this intolerance is the drastic reduction in the number of Jews living in the Arab world. Prior to 1984 close to one million Jews lived in countries members of the Arab league. Most of these Jews fled their homes in the Arab countries and came to Israel as refugees. Presently, only Morocco has a significant Jewish community, app 40,000. There are also about 4000 Jews in Syria. These Jews are eager to leave that country. Yet, the Syrian government refuses to let them go. The Jews are not the only oppressed minorities under Arab rule. Examples of such minorities are the Kurds (remember the Kurdish uprise in Iraq), the Assyrians, the black Christians of the Sudan. It is quite clear that the Arab nationalism of today has very little tolerance towards non-Arab minorities. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
velu@eneevax.UUCP (Velu Sinha) (11/30/85)
>In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >>Yakim Martillo writes: >>> >>> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their >>> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by >>> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam >>> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution >>> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. >>... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. The moghul invaders/rulers of India (read Muslim Invaders) through the time of the British were mostly quite tolerant to the Hindus, Christians, AND Jews who lived in their domain. Of course, there were some who were not so kind, but I believe that was the exception rather than the rule. According to Romila Thapar, in her two volume book, "A History of India", (Penguin, 1966) the Muslims first major invasion was in 712 in the Sind region. However, it was after this time that the Sikh convenants were layed down, and that much of modern hindu philospohy was established. The statement that Islamic jurisprudence MANDATES systematic humiliation and degradation is one which I find very hard to accept. Can you give some reference to some section of the Koran which contains such contemptutous remarks about the other races ofthe world?
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (12/01/85)
> In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: > >Yakim Martillo writes: > >> > >> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their > >> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by > >> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam > >> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution > >> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. > >... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. > >I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off > I believe that the above is also incorrect. The mast millenium certainly > includes the middle ages. I believe it is because of the religious tolerance > of the Islamic world that we call Arabic numerals Arabic. I believe they > were originally Hindu, and the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests > allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, > the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the > prevention of religious liberty. > I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under > the Inquisition, and I'm under the impression that it was through the > Jewish scholars who studied with Arab mathematicians that the Christian world > ended up receiving the ancient Greek and Hindu mathematics. > Also, I believe pogrom is a Yiddish word derived from the Russian for > devastation (Webster's Collegiate) and not really appropriately used > here. The word pogrom here is used to indicate that the masses of population went out to kill Jews. What is the difference where the word comes from. > Peter Berke mark
martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) (12/08/85)
In article <961@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: >> In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >> >Yakim Martillo writes: >> >> >> >> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their >> >> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by >> >> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam >> >> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution >> >> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. >> >... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. I am simply stating fact. The position of Jews and other non-Muslim minorities in the Muslim world has been in a state of almost continuous decline for the past millenium. Even at best the non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. Recently, the flourishing of Persian-Indian music under the Moguls was discussed in net.nlang.india as an example of Islamic magnanimity and several respondents replied that Akbar was atypical of the muslim rulers and that he was constantly feuding with the religious leadership. The situation is similar in Muslim Spain. There were many Muslim rulers who for various reasons refused to treat the non-Muslim population Islamically. >> >I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off >> I believe that the above is also incorrect. The mast millenium certainly >> includes the middle ages. I believe it is because of the religious tolerance >> of the Islamic world that we call Arabic numerals Arabic. I believe they >> were originally Hindu, and the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests >> allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, >> the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the >> prevention of religious liberty. >> I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under >> the Inquisition, and I'm under the impression that it was through the >> Jewish scholars who studied with Arab mathematicians that the Christian world >> ended up receiving the ancient Greek and Hindu mathematics. >> Also, I believe pogrom is a Yiddish word derived from the Russian for >> devastation (Webster's Collegiate) and not really appropriately used >> here. By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was learned from Muslims. The inquisition did nothing which the Almohades had not done centuries earlier. In any case my point was that until Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. >The word pogrom here is used to indicate that the masses of population went >out to kill Jews. What is the difference where the word comes from. Sefardic and oriental Jews and I suppose all non-Muslims in Muslim countries have many words for Muslim pogroms on the non-Muslim population. I merely chose a recognizable word. In any case the attacks of the Muslims on Malaysian chinese in the late 60's were called pogroms by the press. Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (12/10/85)
> By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more > tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was > learned from Muslims. The Jews were expelled from Spain several times *before* the Moors' conquest. They generally took up residence in Provance (SE France) and, after a political change in Spain, moved back. The final preMoorish disaster involved forcible conversion to Christianity of all Jews over 5 years old; the younger ones were taken from their parents and given to Christians to be raised. The term "Marranno", I believe, means "pig" (or the like) and was given to this first cohort of "hidden Jews" by the Jews that came to Spain with the Moors. (This is similar to the term "kike", which originated among American Sephardic Jews in reference to their Eastern European cousins who began to arrive in the U.S. in the 1870s, and is derived from the "...ski" ending of many E. Europe names.) -- Barry Buchbinder (608)221-5000 Agrigenetics Corporation; 5649 East Buckeye Road; Madison WI 53716 USA {{harvard|topaz|seismo}!uwvax!|decvax|ihnp4}!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
mahoney@bach.DEC (12/11/85)
---------------------Reply to mail dated 10-DEC-1985 15:10---------------------
mukesh@epistemi.UUCP (Mukesh Patel) (12/11/85)
>Yakim Martillo writes: > >I am simply stating fact. The position of Jews and other non-Muslim >minorities in the Muslim world has been in a state of almost >continuous decline for the past millenium. Even at best the >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous >humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim >rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. >For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. >Recently, the flourishing of Persian-Indian music under the Moguls >was discussed in net.nlang.india as an example of Islamic magnanimity >and several respondents replied that Akbar was atypical of the muslim >rulers and that he was constantly feuding with the religious >leadership. The situation is similar in Muslim Spain. There were many >Muslim rulers who for various reasons refused to treat the non-Muslim >population Islamically. >By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more >tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was >learned from Muslims. The inquisition did nothing which the Almohades >had not done centuries earlier. In any case my point was that until >Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is >unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern >world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. The kindest thing I can say about Joachim etc,etc is that he is totally demented. Nobody in their right mind can produce such garbage. It is obvious that a major symptom of his demented state is an unbridled hatered of Islam as a school of thought and it's followers, the Muslims. Despite repeated efforts by more liberal minded contributors to this net this guy refuses to engage in a sensible and rational debate. If presented with a counter-example he simply ignores it or rationalises it in terms of individuals. His basic premise is that all Muslims are brutal and intolerant by "modern" (whatever that may imply) standards, and if a muslim does not fit this stereotype then (hey presto!) he is NOT a good muslim. I use to encounter this kind of sloppy arguments when I was 10 or 11 years old which I assume to be Joachim's present mental age. I suggest that from a therapeutic point of view we should humour this simpleton. Mukesh Jayantilal Maghanbhai Patel of Nar, Gujarat. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS. If anyone sees this article in the States please let me know as we have had difficulties in getting stuff over to the US of A. Use "R" to reply. Thanks. I am on the road to nowhere. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ix442@sdcc6.UUCP (Nidhal Guessoum{|ix}) (12/21/85)
> >Yakim Martillo writes: > > > >Even at best the > >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous > >humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim > >rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. > >For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. It is simply outrageous to see Mr. Martillo allow himself to speak so ignorantly about Islam. Have you at least read the Qur'an , Mr. Martillo, to be able to express an opinion about Islam ? The contrary is absolutely obvious, because I challenge you to produce one single verse from the Qur'an ,or one single quotation of the prophet Muhammad (the second source of Islamic juridiction ) that shows that Islam gives second class status to non muslims. I advice you to save yourself the trouble of looking for such a proof, there is none. Second, Mr. Martillo, do you know anything about Islamic history ? I doubt it. Because you would have known simple facts such as : 1) When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, the first thing he did after he was declared ruler of the city by the muslim community, was to assure the large Jewish community there ,IN WRITING , that Islam not only respects their religious traditions and laws, but makes it an article of faith for the muslims to believe in Moses as a true prophet of God, and therefore no harm would be done to the Jews as long as they too respect the muslim community. They ( Muhammad and the Jews of Medina ) went even further : they signed a pact of mutual defense to defend each other in case an outside force came to attack the city. 2) The "copt" ( christian ) community in Egypt has been living safely and peacefuly for centuries in a muslim environment. They constitute , I think , about 10% of the total population, i.e. about 4 million people. Similar ( Jewish and Christian ) communities exist to this day everywhere in the muslim world. How do you interpret the fact that a reunion of the world Jewish council was held in Morocco two years ago? I think it is clear that Mr. Martillo simply didn't know what he was talking about. Or if you have some hatred about Islam, Mr. Martillo, why don't you tell us ? May be someone can help you with that. > > >By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more > >tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was > >learned from Muslims. The inquisition did nothing which the Almohades > >had not done centuries earlier. In any case my point was that until > >Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is > >unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern > >world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. Refer again to my explanation above. I could expand further, but I don't type very fast, and I don't have much time.May be next time... But I hope there won't be a ( similar ) next time... Nidhal Guessoum
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (12/23/85)
> > >Yakim Martillo writes: > > >Even at best the > > >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous > > >humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim > > >rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. > > >For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. > It is simply outrageous to see Mr. Martillo allow himself to speak > so ignorantly about Islam. Have you at least read the Qur'an , > Mr. Martillo, to be able to express an opinion about Islam ? > The contrary is absolutely obvious, because I challenge you to > produce one single verse from the Qur'an ,or one single quotation > of the prophet Muhammad (the second source of Islamic juridiction ) > that shows that Islam gives second class > status to non muslims. I advice you to save yourself the trouble > of looking for such a proof, there is none. > Second, Mr. Martillo, do you know anything about Islamic history ? > I doubt it. Because you would have known simple facts such as : > 1) When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, the > first thing he did after he was declared ruler of the city > by the muslim community, was to assure the large Jewish > community there ,IN WRITING , that Islam not only respects > their religious traditions and laws, but makes it an article > of faith for the muslims to believe in Moses as a true > prophet of God, and therefore no harm would be done to > the Jews as long as they too respect the muslim > community. They ( Muhammad and the Jews of Medina ) went > even further : they signed a pact of mutual defense to > defend each other in case an outside force came to > attack the city. > 2) The "copt" ( christian ) community in Egypt has been > living safely and peacefuly for centuries in a muslim > environment. They constitute , I think , about 10% of > the total population, i.e. about 4 million people. > Similar ( Jewish and Christian ) communities exist to > this day everywhere in the muslim world. > How do you interpret the fact that a reunion of the > world Jewish council was held in Morocco two years ago? What about the Jews in Syria who might possibly want to leave the country ? > I think it is clear that Mr. Martillo simply didn't know what he was > talking about. Or if you have some hatred about Islam, Mr. Martillo, > why don't you tell us ? May be someone can help you with that. > > >By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more > > >tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was > > >learned from Muslims. The inquisition did nothing which the Almohades > > >had not done centuries earlier. In any case my point was that until > > >Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is > > >unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern > > >world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. > Refer again to my explanation above. I could expand further, but I > don't type very fast, and I don't have much time.May be next time... > But I hope there won't be a ( similar ) next time... > Nidhal Guessoum mark homxb!mr
berger@aecom.UUCP (Micha Berger) (12/26/85)
> > >Yakim Martillo writes: > > > > > >Even at best the > > >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous > > >humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim > > >rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. > > >For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. > > It is simply outrageous to see Mr. Martillo allow himself to speak > so ignorantly about Islam. Have you at least read the Qur'an , > Mr. Martillo, to be able to express an opinion about Islam ? > The contrary is absolutely obvious, because I challenge you to > produce one single verse from the Qur'an ,or one single quotation > of the prophet Muhammad (the second source of Islamic juridiction ) > that shows that Islam gives second class > status to non muslims. Well, I do believe the Pact of Omar has a few things to say about dress codes, slave restrictions, and habitation restrictions for non-Muslims.
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (12/26/85)
Nidhal Guessoum writes: > 1) When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, the > first thing he did after he was declared ruler of the city > by the muslim community, was to assure the large Jewish > community there ,IN WRITING , that Islam not only respects > their religious traditions and laws, but makes it an article > of faith for the muslims to believe in Moses as a true > prophet of God, and therefore no harm would be done to > the Jews as long as they too respect the muslim > community. It is undeniable that Jews were sometimes treated in Arab lands better than in the Christian countries in Europe. However, the above assurance was not kept. Few historical example will illustrate it: 1. The yellow badge of shame was not invented in Nazi Germany, but rather by the Caliph Haroun al Rashid of Baghadad in 807 A.D> 2. In 1066, more han 5000 Jews were murdered by Arab mob in Grandada 3. In 1033, 6000 Jews were massacred in Fez. Recent history has even more examples of Arab moslem intolerance against the Jews. > 2) The "copt" ( christian ) community in Egypt has been > living safely and peacefuly for centuries in a muslim > environment. They constitute , I think , about 10% of > the total population, i.e. about 4 million people. It is quite clear that the potrayal of Arab Moslem benevolence towards the Copts in Egypt is an exercise in misinformation. Consider the following: 1. In Decmber 1972, Moslem fanatics burned houses, shops and churches owned by Copts all over Egypt. Copts were attacked and beaten. (London Times, Jan 9, 1973) 2. The president of the American Coptic Association, S. F. Karas, reported in 1976 that Copts suffered from severe discrimination in many areas of life, including government and education. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (12/26/85)
Responding to Yakim Martillo, Nidhal Guessoum writes regarding Arab/Muslim tolerance: > ... ( Jewish and Christian ) communities exist to > this day everywhere in the muslim world. > How do you interpret the fact that a reunion of the > world Jewish council was held in Morocco two years ago? Nidhal is claiming that Jews are living in peace and tranquility in the Arab world. The following statistical information on the number of Jews living in Arab Countries in 1948 and at present illustrate that these claims are baseless. Jewish Population ----------------- Country 1948 present Egypt 75,000 300 Libya 40,000 0 Syria 45,000 4,000 Iraq 125,000 300 Lebanon 20,000 50 Yemen 54,000 0 South Yemen 7,000 0 Tunisia 110,000 0 Moroco 300,000 20,000 Algeria 150,000 500 With the exception of Syria and Moroco the number of Jews in Arab countries is negligible. Most Jews from Arab lands (and their descendants) form now the majority group in Israel. The question is what happened to those who have stayed in Arab countries. Except for Moroco, their situation has been bad. Two examples illustrate this point. The Jews in Syria live in constant fear. They are not allowed to leave the counry. In Iraq in 1969 Jews were hanged in public squares for alleged "spying". Nidhal is correct in singling Moroco as tolerant towards the Jews. The relative good fortunes of the Jews in Moroco can be attributed to one person, King Hassan, the ruler of Moroco. King Hassan does his best to protect the Jews from the more radical elements of the Morocan society such as the Istiqial Party. Furthermore, King Hassan has worked behind the scence to promote coexistance and peace between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East. If other Arab Leaders would follow suit we would be nearer to peace. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev) (12/26/85)
Most disgusting religious practices stem NOT from their Holy Books but from the perversions of the Doctrine bu the people in charge of those religions and atrocious customs of the people. Examples : Christian persecution of Jews Christian atrocities toward Pagans and other NON-Christians Every religion's prosecution of "heresies" Clitoridectomies in Muslim (Arab) countries Excision and infibulation in Muslim (Arab and African) world Suttee (and its Egyptian analog) and other insane and barbaric practices and customs Some of these were NOT originally in the Holy writs or teachings, and were added or WERE there in different form and meaning and were perverted. So, don't get so defensive -- get YOUR facts straight! -- Disclamer: I don't work here anymore - so they are not responsible for me. +-------------------------------+ Don't bother, I'll find the door! | STAY ALERT! TRUST NO ONE! | Oleg Kiselev. | KEEP YOUR LASER HANDY! |...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg --------------------------------+...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg
rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) (12/27/85)
People, people,.... This topic has become either a political debate or a religious discussion between Jews and Muslims. In either case, I fail to see how this is germane to net.nlang.india. So here's a plea to take this newsgroup off all responses. Thank you very much.
aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) (12/27/85)
THESE STATS ARE WRONG! > Jewish Population > ----------------- > > Country 1948 present > > Egypt 75,000 300 > Libya 40,000 0 > Syria 45,000 4,000 > Iraq 125,000 300 > Lebanon 20,000 50 > Yemen 54,000 0 > South Yemen 7,000 0 > Tunisia 110,000 0 > Moroco 300,000 20,000 > Algeria 150,000 500 > > With the exception of Syria and Moroco the number of Jews in Arab > countries is negligible. Most Jews from Arab lands (and their > descendants) form now the majority group in Israel. > > Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories > Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho Your statistics are WRONG! You are using them to DISINFORM and to fuel your own hatred of arabs, your "natural enemies", so to speak. Let me correct you on at least one item : The jewish population in Tunisia today is at least 5,000 including the family and parents of former israeli general Moshe Dayan. Until 1960, the tunisian finance minister was a jew (talk about discrimination!!). Most jews from arab countries fared much better than their co-religionaries of the rest of the world; certainly much better than the german jews and the european jews-zionists. They (sephardic jews) emigrated to Israel with the consent and encouragement of most arab regimes (after all, it is very easy to keep a second-class citizenry from emigrating). This brings another theme which is very hard for jews - and especially the pro-zionists and pro-israeli jews - to comprehend: Arabs generally are not anti-semitic, nor anti-jews. THEY ARE ANTI- ISRAELI. AND FOR GOOD REASONS. The public hanging of a jew in Irak is a famous example of a successfull spy who tripped. The hanged guy penetrated the top brass of the irakian army, government and business elite. He operated for the israeli intelligence for about 4 years before he was discovered. (These are israel's own public recognitions). CHEDLEY AOURIRI. ITT-ATC, SHELTON, CT. ...ittatc!ittvax!aouriri
lkk@teddy.UUCP (12/28/85)
In article <965@ihlpa.UUCP> jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) writes: > > > Jewish Population > ----------------- > >Country 1948 present > >Lebanon 20,000 50 Make that 49. One was just murdered last week by the "Party of God". -- Sport Death, (USENET) ...{decvax | ihnp4!mit-eddie}!genrad!panda!lkk Larry Kolodney (INTERNET) lkk@mit-mc.arpa -------- Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. - Helen Keller
jerraya@imag.UUCP (Ahmed JERRAYA) (12/28/85)
> >Yakim Martillo writes: > > > >Even at best the > >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous > >humiliation by Islamic law. and >Nidhal Guessoum answer: >It is simply outrageous to see Mr. Martillo allow himself to speak >so ignorantly about Islam. At first, I think that the main rule of tolerance is to allow every body to speak about every subject. I read the Qur'an, and some versions of the sunna (Muhamed quotation and actions). Yakim is right: All the Islamic "government" (?), that hold before the 19th centry (and even after) obliged the no muslim men (only, because W....) to pay a special taxes *THE JIZIA* ( for special protection !!! ). In the auther hand The Qur'an says that "Muslims are the best community (OUMMA) at all " Ahmed A. Jerraya
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (12/29/85)
From Chedley Aouriri: >Your statistics are WRONG! You are using them to DISINFORM and to >fuel your own hatred of Arabs, your "natural enemies", so to >speak. >Let me correct you on at least one item : The jewish population in >Tunisia today is at least 5,000 ... I made one typing insignificant error, the other numbers are OK. I agree, there are few thousand Jews in Tunisia. The overall statistical picture is that prior to 1948 there were about 800,000 Jews in Arab countries. Today, there are less than 50,000. I think these numbers reflects the fact that most Jews found it intolerable to live in Arab countries for reasons of fear and discrimination. Obviously, the treatment of Jews varied from one Arab country to another. >This brings another theme which is very hard for jews - and >especially the pro-zionists and pro-Israeli jews - to comprehend: >Arabs generally are not anti-semitic, nor anti-jews. THEY ARE ANTI- >ISRAELI. AND FOR GOOD REASONS. You accused me of fueling hate (by presenting facts). But let see who is really spreading hate. I will give you some examples of quotes from Arab text books. Books used to educate the young Arab generation. The following quotes are from official Syrian school books, published by the Syrian Ministry of Education and Instruction. From "The Religious Ordinance Reader" Damascus 1963-1964 a book for a second year junior high school (translation from Arabic) Enenies of Mankind The Jews are scattered to the end of the earth, where they lived exiled and despised, since by nature they are vile, greedy and enemies of mankind, by their nature they were tempted to steal a land as asylum for their disgrace (p 138). If this is not anti-Semitism then what is anti-Semitism? Now lets look at another Syrian school book. BASIC SYNTAX AND SPELLING for fifth year elementary school (translation from Arabic) Exercise: `We Shall Expel the Jews' Analyze the following sentences: 1. The merchant himself traveled to the African continent 2. We shall expel all the Jews from Arab countries. Note, the above is a syntax and spelling school book! It is not a religious or a history text book. Yet, even here we see teaching for hatred of the Jews. It is no wonder that the PLO terrorists who have been raised on this type of material since childhood have murdered the elderly and crippled Jew, Mr. Klinghofer. I have brought some examples of Syrian school books. Similar examples are available from other Arab countries. >The public hanging of a jew in Irak is a famous example of a >successful spy who tripped. The hanged guy penetrated the top >brass of the irakian army, government and business elite. He >operated for the Israeli intelligence for about 4 years before >he was discovered. (These are israel's own public recognitions). Mr. Aouriri has accused me of making an insignificant statistical error. Yet, he is confusing (or trying to misinform) the facts. The spy that Mr. Aouriri referring to is Mr. Eli Cohen, an Israeli agent who was planted as a mole in Syria, not in Iraq, by Israeli intelligence. Mr. Cohen penetrated the highest echelons of the Syrian army and government. Eventually, he was caught and hanged. In my previous posting, I specifically wrote about the execution of nine Jews who were hanged in a central square of Baghdad on trumped-up charges of espionage for Israel. These Jews, members of a tiny Iraqi Jewish community, were citizens of Iraq (not Israel or Syria). This barbaric act of multiple public hanging of Jews was designed to gain internal public support for the Iraqi regime. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) (12/30/85)
> > >Even at best the > > >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous > > >humiliation by Islamic law. [C. MARTILLO] > It is simply outrageous to see Mr. Martillo allow himself to speak > so ignorantly about Islam. Have you at least read the Qur'an , > Mr. Martillo, to be able to express an opinion about Islam ? Maybe yes, maybe no. But Matt Rosenblatt has read the Qur'an, or at least an English translation thereof. > The contrary is absolutely obvious, because I challenge you to > produce one single verse from the Qur'an ,or one single quotation > of the prophet Muhammad (the second source of Islamic juridiction ) > that shows that Islam gives second class > status to non muslims. [N. GUESSOUM] Aw, c'mon! Can we find anything in the Scriptures telling Jews how to make the phylacteries they wear? Can we find a directive to use separate dishes for milk and meat? Rules for the order of daily prayers? Of course not -- all that is in the Talmud (Oral Law) and the Halacha. Sure, you won't find explicit rules for second-class citizenship for Jews in the Qur'an, or in the writings of the Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace upon him and his Companions). But what does the Shari'a say about Jews? What kind of Islamic law was derived from a passage like: "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." [Qur'an, Chapter 5 (The Table)] The mixed couples living together without benefit of marriage in Israel consist of a Muslim man and a Jewish woman. How come there are no Muslim women living with Jewish men? What HAPPENS to a Muslim woman who goes to live with a Jewish man in Israel? Again, what kind of Shari'a arises from: "Because of their iniquity, We forbade the Jews good things which were formerly allowed them; because time after time they have debarred others from the path of Allah; because they practice usury -- although they were forbidden it -- and cheat others of their possessions. We have prepared a stern chastisement for those of them that disbelieve. But those of them that have deep learning and those that truly believe in what has been revealed to you [i.e., Muhammad] and to other prophets before you; who attend to their prayers and pay the alms-tax and have faith in Allah and the Last Day -- these shall be richly rewarded." [Qur'an, Chapter 4 (Women)]. And never mind the WRITINGS -- what do the ACTIONS of the Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace upon him and his Companions) say about first-class citizenship for Jews? Here's one opinion: > 1) When the prophet migrated from Mecca to Medina, the > first thing he did after he was declared ruler of the city > by the muslim community, was to assure the large Jewish > community there ,IN WRITING , that Islam not only respects > their religious traditions and laws, but makes it an article > of faith for the muslims to believe in Moses as a true > prophet of God, and therefore no harm would be done to > the Jews as long as they too respect the muslim > community. They ( Muhammad and the Jews of Medina ) went > even further : they signed a pact of mutual defense to > defend each other in case an outside force came to > attack the city. [N. GUESSOUM] But what kind of tolerance did he show to the Jewish tribe of Qurayza in 627 C.E. when he raided them? Eight hundred men were beheaded (only one Jew abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and children were sold as slaves! Over and over again, the Qur'an makes clear that the Jews and Christians (People of the Book) who will come out with a whole coat will be precisely those who accept Islam: "If the People of the Book accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight. If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is revealed to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from above and from beneath." [Qur'an, Chapter 5] And what about: "You will please neither the Christians nor the Jews unless you follow their faith." [Qur'an, Chapter 2 (The Cow)]. How does that stack up against the Christian teaching that "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 14:6] and against the Jewish teaching that "The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come." > Or if you have some hatred about Islam, Mr. Martillo, > why don't you tell us ? [N. GUESSOUM] Nothing in the Jewish Scriptures or Oral Law says bad things about Islam or Muslims, who weren't even around in 600 C.E. when the Talmud was closed, ten years before the Prophet got his Call from the angel Gabriel. To my knowledge, Jews are not running around begging for citizenship in Algeria (Can they get it, Mr. Guessoum?) or even permission to reside in Jordan or Sa'udi Arabia (Can they get THAT, sir?). They just want to live in peace, in a Jewish State, on the land that G-d promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants forever. They do not believe that Israel and its capital Jerusalem are part of the Dar al Islam. > > > In any case my point was that until > > >Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is > > >unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern > > >world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. > > >[C. MARTILLO] Unfortunately, *modern* standards are based on the so-called "Enlightenment," generated by a bunch of European atheists about 260 years before my time. By these standards, Jews should not be able to rule territories according to Torah Law. It is presumptuous to say that Islam is unacceptable in the modern world. Rather say to them what King David said to some bunch of pagans that tried to rule over Jewish land: "Wilt thou not possess what Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?" The Muslims rule Iran and much of the Arab world, and that's fine with me. The Christians rule "Christendom," which includes Spain and England and, yes, even the United States of America, and that, too, is fine with me. Atheist believers in the "Enlightenment" rule New York, Massachusetts and California -- they violate the Seven Noahide Laws and they will eventually get theirs. Let Muslims rule over territories -- but not over Jews or Christians. And not over any of the Promised Land -- not one square inch! -- Matt Rosenblatt
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (12/31/85)
> Aw, c'mon! Can we find anything in the Scriptures telling Jews how to > make the phylacteries they wear? Can we find a directive to use separate > dishes for milk and meat? Rules for the order of daily prayers? Of > course not -- all that is in the Talmud (Oral Law) and the Halacha. > Sure, you won't find explicit rules for second-class citizenship for > Jews in the Qur'an, or in the writings of the Prophet (Allah's blessing > and peace upon him and his Companions). [ROSENBLATT] Boy, by this reasoning you can't win. If you prove it's not in there, Rosenblatt will say "well, OF COURSE, it's not in there, it's in their oral tradition!" > "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. > They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their > friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not > guide the wrongdoers." [Qur'an, Chapter 5 (The Table)] Sounds awful similar to "thou shalt have no other gods before me" and other passages discouraging association with those awful other religions in the bible. > But what kind of tolerance did he show to the Jewish tribe of Qurayza in > 627 C.E. when he raided them? Eight hundred men were beheaded (only > one Jew abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and > children were sold as slaves! The same kind of tolerance the Israelites showed the native inhabitants of Canaan when they took their land away. (Oh, I'm sorry, there was a justification for it: god said they should. Or so they said...) > Over and over again, the Qur'an makes clear that the Jews and Christians > (People of the Book) who will come out with a whole coat will be precisely > those who accept Islam: > "If the People of the Book accept the true faith and keep from > evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens > of delight. If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is > revealed to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from > above and from beneath." [Qur'an, Chapter 5] Again, no different an attitude than those perpetuated by other religions. > And what about: > "You will please neither the Christians nor the Jews > unless you follow their faith." [Qur'an, Chapter 2 (The Cow)]. This would seem to be an indictment (and an accurate one) of the intolerance of the OTHER religions. You will not please them unless you follow their faith. Sounds pretty accurate to me. > How does that stack up against the Christian teaching that > "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 14:6] > and against the Jewish teaching that > "The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come." You know, Matt, once, after you had told us all in net.abortion about your legal training, I didn't really believe you were actually qualified to be a lawyer. But now that I've seen this example (take a "bad" quote from the Quran, and a couple of "good" quotes from other religious texts, and "prove" that Islam is a heinous religion), I can honestly that I believe you to have the qualifications to be a lawyer. :-( >> Or if you have some hatred about Islam, Mr. Martillo, >> why don't you tell us ? [N. GUESSOUM] > Nothing in the Jewish Scriptures or Oral Law says bad things about Islam or > Muslims, who weren't even around in 600 C.E. when the Talmud was closed, > ten years before the Prophet got his Call from the angel Gabriel. Well, it seems the fact that the Talmud was "closed" before Islam existed explains why it wasn't mentioned, no? Besides, the Hebrews had those awful Baal worshippers to talk about. >>>> In any case my point was that until >>>>Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is >>>>unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern >>>>world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. >>>>[C. MARTILLO] > Unfortunately, *modern* standards are based on the so-called "Enlightenment," > generated by a bunch of European atheists about 260 years before my time. Yes, we know, Matt. You don't like this "modern" "garbage", which promotes individual human rights and such, so you smear it by calling it "so-called" (do you take care of traffic tickets?). > The Muslims rule Iran and much of the Arab world, and that's fine with me. > The Christians rule "Christendom," which includes Spain and England and, > yes, even the United States of America, and that, too, is fine with me. > Atheist believers in the "Enlightenment" rule New York, Massachusetts > and California -- they violate the Seven Noahide Laws and they will > eventually get theirs. Let Muslims rule over territories -- but not > over Jews or Christians. And not over any of the Promised Land -- not > one square inch! How about NOBODY ruling or controlling ANYBODY'S lives ANYWHERE? Naaah! I'll agree that the worst practitioners of Islam have done and continue to do some heinous and awful things. But to claim that for this reason your religion is somehow better than theirs strikes me as stupid and arrogant. Hey, Islam is a young religion compared to Judaism and Christianity, younger than Christianity by some 700 years or so. What was Christianity like 700 years ago? What was Judaism like before that? Give those awful "savage" Moslems some time to catch up to the standards of modern religion. With Identity Christianity, radical impositional fundamentalism, and other modern truly enlightened intolerances found in both Judaism AND Christianity. You'll find that, in reality, they're running neck-a-neck with you in the race of religious evolution. (And by the way, which Noachide laws am I (and those other awful "atheist" types) breaking? And can you represent me at the trial? :-) -- And now, a hidden satanic message: _ 9L|^6| _ W6Vn|na| 622 (HINT: Hold it upside down in front of a mirror.) Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (01/01/86)
There has been an extended debate in recent posting on the intolerance of Islam. People have been quoted from old books such as the Qur'an for such evidence. It is quite clear that in ancient time Islam and other religions (including Christianity the Jewish religion) were intolerant towards other religions. The real question is whether those who practice these religions continue to hold these old values of intolerance to the present day. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (01/06/86)
> There has been an extended debate in recent posting on the intolerance > of Islam. People have been quoted from old books such as the Qur'an > for such evidence. It is quite clear that in ancient time Islam and > other religions (including Christianity the Jewish religion) were > intolerant towards other religions. The real question is whether those > who practice these religions continue to hold these old values of > intolerance to the present day. [HOSHEN] The obvious answer, especially in the case of those who take their religious source material as FUNDAMENTALLY literally true, is a resounding YES. Unfortunately. -- "If you see this boy", said the ballerina, "do not---I repeat, do not---attempt to reason with him." Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr