bnapl@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (01/02/86)
In article <decwrl.218> mahoney@bach.DEC writes: > >>Stalinism is merely pragmatic Marxism. >> > > If you belive this then you don't know anything about commiunism or > Stalinism. Stalinism is more facism nazism then anything else. Marx believed that state terrorism was an appropriate tool to use in carrying out the ideals of his philosophy. Stalin was simply using all the available methods. Stalin was a Marxist, just like Khrushchev, et. al. > >>Show me one communist government that isn't bad and I'll eat my >>copy of Das Kapital. Communism is, by definition, bad government. > > How about Yugoslavia from what I have seen and read about this country > things are pretty good. You don't have mass migration (people can leave > if they wish there are no travel restrictions.) . The borders are open > as tourism is there #1 industry. This country is probably the closest > country to Marxism there is but still it is not there either. > You can't possibly compare the few "freedoms" that a country such as Yugoslavia has when compared with its neighbors in western Europe. Yugoslavia has 1 million unemployed, 80% inflation and owes about $19 billion to western banks. Their economy may not be bankrupt, but they're a fine example of a debtor nation. If there is any good in the government it's because they have allowed some capitalist ideas to creep into the economy. There is no revolution of the proletariat going on in Yugoslavia or any other eastern block country. > I hope that you enjoy your book maybe medium rare would be good. > One other thing the US has always supported Yugoslavia and Tito who > never hid the fact that he was a communist. > > Brian Mahoney I'm not about to fire up the barbeque just yet. BTW, Deng Xio Ping didn't get Time's Man-of-the-Year award for being a hardcore Marxist. Things are changing for the better in China because of capitalist influences and tendencies (albeit, on a small scale). -- / / / Tom Albrecht Burroughs Corp. ===/ / /=== ...{presby|psuvax1|sdcrdcf}!burdvax!bnapl ===/ / /=== (215)341-4656 ===/ / /=== CompuServe: 72626,2550 / / / "That's the news from Lake Wobegon ... "
mahoney@bach.DEC (01/05/86)
---------------------Reply to mail dated 2-JAN-1986 16:27--------------------- >You can't possibly compare the few "freedoms" that a country such as >Yugoslavia has when compared with its neighbors in western Europe. > >Yugoslavia has 1 million unemployed, 80% inflation and owes about $19 >billion to western banks. Their economy may not be bankrupt, but they're a >fine example of a debtor nation. If there is any good in the government it's >because they have allowed some capitalist ideas to creep into the economy. > >There is no revolution of the proletariat going on in Yugoslavia or any >other eastern block country. > FIrst off I don't support communism I am probably as hard core capitalist free market as you can get. (I do have some restraints but very few) Just a general disclaimer. Lets lookat some of our other friends. Mexico has 60% inflation owes us somewheer near 29 billion dollars and wants to borrow more. They are for the most part a one party state there elections for the most part are a farce. Argentinia had inflation rates in the thousands of percent prices were getting the way of Germany before WWII. You could walk into the store and by the time you left the prices had risen. (Much of this has changed under the current civilian government) collectively South America owes us near 300 billion and wants to borrow more to pay off the debt. The freedom in many of these countries is no better or worse then that of Yugoslavia. Inflation in Isreal is also in the double digits. (I don't remember exactly what it is.) Americans are a very lucky people for most of the world high double digit inflation is the norm. High interest rates are the norm. Americans take much to much for granted and it is time they woke up to the fact that the rest of the world is not America. Brian Mahoney "Always vigilant but possible wrong" PS These facts might be off they are from my memory. If they are off it is not by much and I apologize before hand.
ekrell@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/05/86)
In article <257@decwrl.DEC.COM> mahoney@bach.DEC writes: > (refering to south american countries) > The freedom in many of these countries is no better or worse then that > of Yugoslavia. That statement is incorrect. There are only two countries in south america that still live under a military dictatorship: Paraguay and Chile. From speaking with a friend from Yugoslavia, I conclude that even in these countries there are more freedoms than in Yugoslavia. As for the rest of south america, they enjoy a quite open democracy with all or most of the freedoms enjoyed in the west. There is no comparison. -- Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department ekrell@ucla-locus.arpa ..!{sdcrdcf,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!ekrell
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (01/07/86)
> >[Unknown] > >You can't possibly compare the few "freedoms" that a country such as > >Yugoslavia has when compared with its neighbors in western Europe. > > > >Yugoslavia has 1 million unemployed, 80% inflation and owes about $19 > >billion to western banks. Their economy may not be bankrupt, but they're a > >fine example of a debtor nation. If there is any good in the government it's > >because they have allowed some capitalist ideas to creep into the economy. > > > >There is no revolution of the proletariat going on in Yugoslavia or any > >other eastern block country. ------ > [Brian Mahoney] > FIrst off I don't support communism I am probably as hard core capitalist > free market as you can get. (I do have some restraints but very few) > Just a general disclaimer. > Lets look at some of our other friends. > > [Mentions bad economic conditions of Mexico, Argentina, South America > collectively, and Israel] ------ An apples and oranges comparison. Yugoslavia should be compared with non-communist countries in southern Europe, such as Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. (Unfortunately, there are no non-communist countries in Eastern Europe to compare it with.) -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
mahoney@bach.DEC (01/08/86)
---------------------Reply to mail dated 7-JAN-1986 00:29--------------------- >> [Brian Mahoney] >> FIrst off I don't support communism I am probably as hard core capitalist >> free market as you can get. (I do have some restraints but very few) >> Just a general disclaimer. >> Lets look at some of our other friends. >> >> [Mentions bad economic conditions of Mexico, Argentina, South America >> collectively, and Israel] >------ >An apples and oranges comparison. Yugoslavia should be compared >with non-communist countries in southern Europe, such as Greece, Italy, >Spain, and Portugal. (Unfortunately, there are no non-communist countries >in Eastern Europe to compare it with.) >-- >Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan Why must the comparision be restricted to Europe? Brian Mahoney
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (01/09/86)
> In article <257@decwrl.DEC.COM> mahoney@bach.DEC writes: > > (refering to south american countries) > > The freedom in many of these countries is no better or worse then that > > of Yugoslavia. > > That statement is incorrect. There are only two countries in south america > that still live under a military dictatorship: Paraguay and Chile. From > speaking with a friend from Yugoslavia, I conclude that even in these > countries there are more freedoms than in Yugoslavia. > > As for the rest of south america, they enjoy a quite open democracy with > all or most of the freedoms enjoyed in the west. There is no comparison. > -- > Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department I do not see why Chile is more free than Yugoslavia. Colombia has "democratic" government, but quite autoritarian and under strong influence of the military. There are opinions that Betancour was less connected with the traditional oligarchy than the previous presidents, but only temporarily. Venezuela has also a multi-party system, but the government is allegedly so corrupt that the party in power makes very little difference. Surinam has very bad record, Guyana only slightly better. Piotr Berman
ekrell@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/10/86)
In article <1958@psuvax1.UUCP> berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) writes: > >I do not see why Chile is more free than Yugoslavia. Well, you can say things like "there's no freedom of the press in either countries", but the degree of freedom (or lack of thereof) is quite different. In Chile, there is a growing number of opposition magazines who publish anti government articles, there are a couple of political discussion programs on the radio with outspoken opposition leaders. Opposition parties are allowed to held rallies (the last one in November with some 500,000 attendees). Opposition leaders are often interviewed on (state run) TV and pro-government publications. Students hold elections for their reps where the left wing parties wins most of the time. Universities are starting to hold free elections among their faculty to pick deans for the different schools. The judicial courts (including the supreme court) often rule against the government when it tries to prosecute opossition and union leaders. They are also prosecuting former policemen and soldiers accused of killing communist party members. I could go on but that should be enough to realize the enormous difference with any communist regime. -- Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department ekrell@ucla-locus.arpa ..!{sdcrdcf,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!ekrell