dimitrov@csd2.UUCP (Isaac Dimitrovsky) (01/16/86)
[] Chedley's latest: > After all, if the US is really serious about doing the job for > the israelis by attacking countries who help anti-israeli > terrorists, at least a half dozen countries should be attacked. > Among them, Syria, Irak, Lebanon, Iran, Bulgaria,.... If I remember correctly, only a quarter or so of the casualties in the recent airport attacks were Israeli citizens. > The european countries have a more level headed reaction. > Italy and Austria ,where the recent actions took place, and > other european countries recognize that the objective of the > palestinian's actions was Israel's airline company. And if they kill or maim a few Europeans in the process, that's understandable, eh? Level headed indeed. > Terrorism is only a symptom, not the cause of the Middle-East > problem. What does this elegant but somewhat obscure statement mean? The giveaway here is the use of the singular *the* Middle East program. Any objective observer would realize that there are many problems causing tension in the Middle East. The "problem" Mr. A. refers to is the existence of Israel, and the statement says that rather than treat the symptom of this problem, terrorism, one should directly treat this problem. To sum it up in one line: Give the terrorists what they want and hope they go away. If I'm misreading you, Chedley, please say what you actually meant. My personal opinion on what we should do about Libya: I don't think we should attack Qaddafi with military force, since this would only allow him to pose as the virile fighter for the great Arab nation against the American Satan. More reasonable Arab governments such as Egypt would be hurt. I think measures to damage Libya's economy and to increase security against terrorists would be better. I agree with the ending of trade with Libya, the freezing of Libya's assets in the US, and requiring US citizens to leave. I think we should also try to reduce European trade with Libya, both by applying pressure on European countries and by trying to depress the world oil market and counter the influence of OPEC (this would have other benefits as well). One thing we should do immediately is enact an oil import fee to reduce our foreign oil consumption (and our deficit as well). If European countries are unwilling to end trade with Libya, we should at least try to get them to make it less attractive for their citizens to work there. For example, they could tax earnings in Libya at a high rate. This would perhaps be easier politically to do than ending trade, and the Libyan economy is quite dependent on the foreign citizens working there. We should also increase security at obvious targets like airports, bus stations, etc. We should publicize places that are not secure (i.e. Athens airport) to put economic pressure on these places to beef up security. For those people suffering from severe bloodlust for whom these steps aren't satisfying enough, consider that poetic justice is quite likely in Qaddafi's case without any intervention by us. The Libyan military is apparently mucho pissed off by Qaddafi's idealistic aim of eventually eliminating the armed forces (to be replaced by people's militias). There have been a couple of assasination attempts this past year. Just last November, the third most powerful man in Libya's government, a proponent of the military, was killed. Showing that they haven't lost their delightful sense of humor, the Libyan government variously attributed his death to a car accident and suicide (the body had been shot six times). Isaac Dimitrovsky allegra!cmcl2!csd2!dimitrov (l in cmcl2 is letter l not number 1) 251 Mercer Street, New York NY 10012 (212) 674-8652 You know the great thing about tv? If something important happens anywhere at all in the world, no matter what time of the day or night, you can always change the channel - Jim Ignatowski
aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) (01/17/86)
> > > Terrorism is only a symptom, not the cause of the Middle-East > > problem. > > What does this elegant but somewhat obscure statement mean? > The giveaway here is the use of the singular *the* Middle East > problem. Any objective observer would realize that there are > many problems causing tension in the Middle East. The "problem" > Mr. A. refers to is the existence of Israel, and the statement > says that rather than treat the symptom of this problem, terrorism, > one should directly treat this problem. To sum it up in one line: > Give the terrorists what they want and hope they go away. > If I'm misreading you, Chedley, please say what you actually meant. You are not misreading me, but your last sum-up line is. Let me correct you: Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east terrorist problem WILL go away. > the ending of trade with Libya, the freezing of Libya's assets From a strictly economic point of view: I do not think that freezing Libya's financial assets in the US is wise. By doing that, we are sending the wrong signal to foreign investors in our economy and capital financial markets. This is also against our professed trust in free trade and flow of capital. ____________ Chedley Aouriri ITT-ATC, Shelton, CT. ...ittatc!ittvax!aouriri
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/19/86)
> > > Terrorism is only a symptom, not the cause of the Middle-East > > > problem. > > > > What does this elegant but somewhat obscure statement mean? > > The giveaway here is the use of the singular *the* Middle East > > problem. Any objective observer would realize that there are > > many problems causing tension in the Middle East. The "problem" > > Mr. A. refers to is the existence of Israel, and the statement > > says that rather than treat the symptom of this problem, terrorism, > > one should directly treat this problem. To sum it up in one line: > > Give the terrorists what they want and hope they go away. > > If I'm misreading you, Chedley, please say what you actually meant. > > You are not misreading me, but your last sum-up line is. > Let me correct you: > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > terrorist problem WILL go away. It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it (to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be solved. > > the ending of trade with Libya, the freezing of Libya's assets > > >From a strictly economic point of view: > I do not think that freezing Libya's financial assets in the US is wise. > By doing that, we are sending the wrong signal to foreign investors > in our economy and capital financial markets. This is also against > our professed trust in free trade and flow of capital. This does not make sense. Foreign investors who do not support terrorism have nothing to worry about. > ____________ > Chedley Aouriri > ITT-ATC, Shelton, CT. > ...ittatc!ittvax!aouriri > mark homxb!mr
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (01/20/86)
(Chedley Aouriri) writes: > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > terrorist problem WILL go away. A question for Chedly: What percentage of the land currently in Israel hands comprises the homeland, the giving of which to the palestinians will end terrorism? If you don't answer I will assume the answer to be 100%.
cdp@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (01/21/86)
>I think measures to damage Libya's economy and to increase >security against terrorists would be better. I agree with >the ending of trade with Libya, the freezing of Libya's >assets in the US, and requiring US citizens to leave. >I think we should also try to reduce European trade with >Libya, both by applying pressure on European countries >and by trying to depress the world oil market and counter >the influence of OPEC (this would have other benefits as >well). One thing we should do immediately is enact an oil >import fee to reduce our foreign oil consumption (and our >deficit as well). If European countries are unwilling to >end trade with Libya, we should at least try to get them >to make it less attractive for their citizens to work there. >For example, they could tax earnings in Libya at a high rate. >This would perhaps be easier politically to do than ending >trade, and the Libyan economy is quite dependent on the >foreign citizens working there. We should also increase >security at obvious targets like airports, bus stations, >etc. We should publicize places that are not secure (i.e. >Athens airport) to put economic pressure on these places >to beef up security. > > >Isaac Dimitrovsky VERY unsuccessful try mr. Dimitrovsky. If you read newspapers or watch the news you should know that Athens airport is considered the safest airport in Europe at this moment. Policemen with machine guns and armored vechicles are everywhere you look. Every passenger is hand searched on top of three X-ray checks. I wonder why you single out Athens (where an incident happened with one victim) and you do not mention Rome's Vienna's or Frankfurt's airports where several terrorist attacks have taken place in the last few months with tens of victims. You should know that the investigations of the Greek Security, IATA and FBI converge to the conclusion that the pistols used in the TWA hijacking were smuggled in the plain in Cairo, not Athens. Don't forget that Greece has paid dearly with more victims in the last two incidents than US or Israel--there were 15 Greeks dead in Malta and 5 in Rome but noone mentioned anything of course--and I am sure the Greek security is anxious to blow the ass of every bastard terrorist who will dare enter Athens airport.
matt@brl-tgr.UUCP (01/22/86)
> > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > > terrorist problem WILL go away. [C. AOURIRI] > It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > (to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the > fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start > looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be > solved. [M. RINDSBERG] Mr. Rindsberg has hit the nail on the head! No one suggests that we Americans give our land back to the (surviving) Indians -- he'd be laughed at! The Indians knew when to quit. Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce said, "From where the sun now sets, I will fight no more forever." I understand that Yasser Arafat keeps a painting of Chief Joseph in his office. When he learns to follow the Chief's example, there will be peace. -- Matt Rosenblatt
aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) (01/22/86)
> (Chedley Aouriri) writes: > > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > > terrorist problem WILL go away. > > A question for Chedly: What percentage of the land currently in > Israel hands comprises the homeland, the giving of which to the > palestinians will end terrorism? > The percentage assigned by the UN resolution in 1948 partitioning Palestine and creating Israel. It includes all territories occupied and/or annexed after the 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars. Chedly Aouriri.
mrgofor@mmm.UUCP (Michael Ross) (01/22/86)
In article <1136@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: > >It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it >(to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the >fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start >looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be >solved. Seems to me that this IS the problem. I think you err when you say "we won". Perhaps you should say, "At this time of the on-going struggle we would appear to have the upper hand, but there are those who are working to change that." The war is obviously not yet over, and will not be over until all parties acknowledge that all of the others also consider Palestine their homeland and will fight to the death to live there. There seem to be only three possible outcomes: 1) Everybody forgets the whole thing and just stays where they are. Not bloody likely. 2) One faction achieves genocide over the others. Not bloody likely. 3) All concerned parties learn to live TOGETHER in peace. Not bloody likely. 4) The conflict goes on forever. BLOODY likely. --MKR
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/23/86)
> > > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > > > terrorist problem WILL go away. [C. AOURIRI] > > It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > > (to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the > > fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start > > looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be > > solved. [M. RINDSBERG] > Mr. Rindsberg has hit the nail on the head! No one suggests that we > Americans give our land back to the (surviving) Indians -- he'd be > laughed at! The Indians knew when to quit. Chief Joseph of the Nez > Perce said, "From where the sun now sets, I will fight no more forever." > I understand that Yasser Arafat keeps a painting of Chief Joseph in his > office. When he learns to follow the Chief's example, there will be > peace. > -- Matt Rosenblatt Did anyone notice how chedley aouriri didn't venture to respond to the above statements ???
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/23/86)
> In article <1136@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: > > > >It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > >(to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the > >fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start > >looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be > >solved. > > Seems to me that this IS the problem. I think you err when you > say "we won". Perhaps you should say, "At this time of the on-going struggle I am sorry, I should have said: We have won 5 times and will continue to win until everyone realizes that it is not worth it to fight any more. > we would appear to have the upper hand, but there are those who are working > to change that." The war is obviously not yet over, and will not be over > until all parties acknowledge that all of the others also consider Palestine > their homeland and will fight to the death to live there. > There seem to be only three possible outcomes: > > 1) Everybody forgets the whole thing and just stays where they > are. Not bloody likely. This sort of think (1) never happens in cases like these (i.e. history). > > 2) One faction achieves genocide over the others. Not bloody likely. Hopefully not very likely, but with the advent of nuclear weapons one never knows, especially with leaders like khaddafy in this world. > > 3) All concerned parties learn to live TOGETHER in peace. Not > bloody likely. Given time anything can happen, but not likely in the very near future. > > 4) The conflict goes on forever. BLOODY likely. Not wanted by either side of the struggle (as you call it). > --MKR mark homxb!mr
lazarus@sunybcs.UUCP (Daniel G. Winkowski) (01/23/86)
In article <1136@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: >It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it >(to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! By this reasoning, the Jews fought for a homeland that was not by any rights theirs. Is it any wonder that the Palestinians are fighting so fearsomely after being out of control for such a short time period (>> 2000 years)! > When the fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start >looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be >solved. This is an example of how warped, thinking can become when one is blinded by a cause. The fact is, that THE PROBLEM, will remain until the nation of Israel becomes mature enough to recognize that the Palestinian conflict will not vanish of its own accord. It will take the cooperation of Israel and her enemies. History has shown us that it can work. Unfortunately, Israel is unlikely to reach that stage of maturity while it retains the mindset of a nation battling for its life. -------------- Dan Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2193) UUCP: ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus CSNET: lazarus@Buffalo.CSNET ARPA: lazarus%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY
goudreau@dg_rtp.UUCP (01/24/86)
In article <574@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP> aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) writes: >Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east >terrorist problem WILL go away. Okay, let's postulate that Israel and its non-Palestinian residents suddenly disappear. The Palestinians now have their homeland, and "the middle-east terrorist problem WILL go away," right? Wrong! What about: 1) Khadaffy's international hit-squads, which go after Libyan dissidents? I see no connection between these people and the Palestinian issue, but the London sniper incident occurred nevertheless. 2) Kurdish rebels vs. Iran. 3) Lebanese civil war (Christians, Shi`ites, Sunnis, Druze, etc.). etc.... It is naive or misleading to say that the terrorism is solely caused by the Palestinian problem. Or is saying so really a calculated attempt to once again lay all the blame on the "International Zionist Conspiracy" (read "Jews")? Bob Goudreau
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (01/25/86)
In article <578@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP> aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) writes: >> >> A question for Chedly: What percentage of the land currently in >> Israel hands comprises the homeland, the giving of which to the >> palestinians will end terrorism? >> > > The percentage assigned by the UN resolution in 1948 partitioning >Palestine and creating Israel. It includes all territories occupied >and/or annexed after the 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars. >Chedly Aouriri. But will the Palestinians be satisfied with that, or will they simply start another war with Israel, and lose those territories again? -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/26/86)
> In article <1136@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: > >It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > >(to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! > > By this reasoning, the Jews fought for a homeland that was not by any > rights theirs. Is it any wonder that the Palestinians are fighting so Who ever said that it was not theirs ??????? It was theirs and was captured by various empires ending with the arabs at which time it was captured back by the Jews !! How does this show that it is not the right of the Jews ? In fact, it shows the opposite, that since the Jews controlled first it is the right to recapture. > fearsomely after being out of control for such a short time period > (>> 2000 years)! > > > When the fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start > >looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be > >solved. > > This is an example of how warped, thinking can become when one is > blinded by a cause. The fact is, that THE PROBLEM, will remain until What cause do you refer to ??? > the nation of Israel becomes mature enough to recognize that the Palestinian > conflict will not vanish of its own accord. It will take the cooperation The so called "palestinians" won't even recognize that Israel exists !!! How can Israel talk to a group without a unified anything. There is no one person or group of people that Israel can talk to to rectify the "problem" !!! > of Israel and her enemies. History has shown us that it can work. The "cooperation", There is NO cooperation. They don't even recognize Israel, much less speak to them on even terms. > Unfortunately, Israel is unlikely to reach that stage of maturity > while it retains the mindset of a nation battling for its life. What the hell are you talking about ???? mindset ???? Who keeps attacking ?? Israel ???? NO, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN THE AGRESSORS AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, ISRAEL IS FIGHTING FOR HER LIFE EVERY TIME !!!!!!! > -------------- > Dan Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2193) > UUCP: ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus > CSNET: lazarus@Buffalo.CSNET ARPA: lazarus%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY mark homxb!mr