radford@calgary.UUCP (Radford Neal) (01/23/86)
> > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > > terrorist problem WILL go away. > > It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > (to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the > fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start > looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be > solved. > > mark > homxb!mr If you believe in this "might makes right" philosophy, how can you morally condemn the palistinians who employ terror? If the rest of Isreal believes this too, why should we give a shit if you get pushed into the sea? Radford Neal
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/26/86)
> > > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > > > terrorist problem WILL go away. > > > > It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > > (to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the > > fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start > > looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be > > solved. > > > > mark > > homxb!mr > > If you believe in this "might makes right" philosophy, how can you > morally condemn the palistinians who employ terror? If the rest of > Isreal believes this too, why should we give a shit if you get pushed > into the sea? > > Radford Neal You seem to think that there is no difference between torrorism and war. Let me explain the differences. Terrorism is aimed at (mostly) civilian targets and are expected to be very bloody and in a very public place. There also exists airspace terrorism so the terrorists can fly back to safety and then kill everybody on board (hasn't been working very well, though). Now war is different. War is when two or more countries assemble armies and they fight with each other until the countries at war have either run out of people to be killed or have decided to stop the war. (very simplified) Now back to politics. During 1947 and 1948 the Jews decided it was high time to get for themselves their homeland back, so they did. In 1948 the UN proposed a plan to give everyone a homeland, it was refused unilaterally. There was a lot of land available for the "palestinians." But, the arabs couldn't seem to leave Israel alone and attacked in 1956, and there was a war and the Jews won and the arabs lost, but to prevent future conflicts the Jews had to take some territory for safety margins. Then again in 1967 the arabs attacked in full force and miraculously the Jews won again (against great odds), but then the mighty USA stepped in and stopped the war. More territory was absorbed. In 1973 on the most important day of the year for Jews, the arabs attacked again and with great loss of life the Jews again won the war and was able to protect its citizens. In 1982 the people in the Northern sections of Israel were forced to live in bomb shelters, literally ( I was in Israel at the time, and believe me, it is true). So, Israel defended its northern borders during the summer of 1982. OK. Who were the instigators of each war ? And what were the stated reasons and intentions ? Back to what I originally said. The Jews spent very much in acquiring the country. The loss of life was tremendous (percentagewise). Now we feel that Israel has a right to exist as it did exist a few thousand years ago. Why is it that everyone insists that Israel give back its land to a group of non-unified people who can't even find a representative and which even refuses to recognize that Israel exists. As to why "you should care whether the Jews are driven into the sea". There are those who believe that Israel is beneficial to the US in the middle east, being its only strong ally in the region. mark homxb!mr
gsmith@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene Ward Smith) (01/30/86)
In article <1172@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: >> > > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east >> > > terrorist problem WILL go away. >> > >> > It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it >> > (to regain control after 2000 years) and have won !!!! When the >> > fact that we won is acknowledged and when the palestinians start >> > looking somewhere else for a homeland, then, the problem will be >> > solved. >> > >> > mark >> > homxb!mr >> >> If you believe in this "might makes right" philosophy, how can you >> morally condemn the palistinians who employ terror? If the rest of >> Israel believes this too, why should we give a shit if you get pushed >> into the sea? >> >> Radford Neal > >Now back to politics. During 1947 and 1948 the Jews decided it was high time >to get for themselves their homeland back, so they did. In 1948 the UN Why "their homeland"? Because God gave it to them? Actually, God and I are good buddies and He tells me He doesn't wan't to take sides. >There was a lot of land available for the "palestinians." But, the arabs >couldn't seem to leave Israel alone and attacked in 1956, and there was a war Whups! I seem to recall it was Israel which attacked in 1956! >Jews had to take some territory for safety margins. Then again in 1967 the >arabs attacked in full force and miraculously the Jews won again (against Uh -- wasn't it Israel (not "the Jews", damn it) which attacked during a period of rising tension for which Nasser was partly (but only partly) to blame? Thats how I remember it, check your history books, why don't you? >More territory was absorbed. In 1973 on the most important day of the year >for Jews, the arabs attacked again and with great loss of life the Jews again Finally got it right. I guess one out of three aint bad when you obviously have an axe to grind and don't give a damn about objective truth. >( I was in Israel at the time, and believe me, it is true). So, Israel >defended its northern borders during the summer of 1982. OK. Went a little overboard for just a "defensive" war I would say. > >Who were the instigators of each war ? And what were the stated reasons and >intentions ? I would say the 1948 war was a tie (both sides attacked each other). We just went through the rest of it. Score: Israel 2.5, Arab states 1.5. >Back to what I originally said. The Jews spent very much in acquiring the >country. The loss of life was tremendous (percentagewise). Now we feel that >Israel has a right to exist as it did exist a few thousand years ago. Why >is it that everyone insists that Israel give back its land to a group of >non-unified people who can't even find a representative and which even >refuses to recognize that Israel exists. Personally, I would just like to see a negociated settlement. It would be nice for starters for "friends" of Israel (no, I don't think you are doing a bit of good for Israel in the long run) to recognize that neither side is all wonderful and pure. What do YOU think ought to be done about those crummy disorganized people on the West Bank and Gaza? Wanna give them the vote? Why not -- isn't Israel a democracy? I guess I'll just wait and see before answering that one myself. >As to why "you should care whether the Jews are driven into the sea". There >are those who believe that Israel is beneficial to the US in the middle east, >being its only strong ally in the region. With friends like this, who need enemies? > >mark >homxb!mr Gene "not Arab not Jewish I think Arabs and Jews and Israel and Egypt and the Paleatinians etc. etc. are ALL wonderful" Smith
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (02/03/86)
> In article <1172@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: > >> > > Give the palestinians their homeland back, and the middle-east > >> > > terrorist problem WILL go away. > >> > > >> > It isn't their homeland anymore. We, the Jews, have fought for it > >> > . . . . > >> > mark > >> > homxb!mr > >> > >> If you believe in this "might makes right" philosophy, how can you > >> . . . . > >> into the sea? > >> > >> Radford Neal > > > >Now back to politics. During 1947 and 1948 the Jews decided it was high time > >to get for themselves their homeland back, so they did. In 1948 the UN > > Why "their homeland"? Because God gave it to them? Actually, God and > I are good buddies and He tells me He doesn't wan't to take sides. We can go round and round on this forever. Who lived in the area called "palestine" before the arabs did ? Or before that ? .... > >There was a lot of land available for the "palestinians." But, the arabs > >couldn't seem to leave Israel alone and attacked in 1956, and there was a war > > Whups! I seem to recall it was Israel which attacked in 1956! Excuse me, What do you consider an attack ?? > >Jews had to take some territory for safety margins. Then again in 1967 the > >arabs attacked in full force and miraculously the Jews won again (against > > Uh -- wasn't it Israel (not "the Jews", damn it) which attacked during > a period of rising tension for which Nasser was partly (but only partly) > to blame? Thats how I remember it, check your history books, why don't > you? Again, What do you consider an attack ? What about intelligence reports ? > >More territory was absorbed. In 1973 on the most important day of the year > >for Jews, the arabs attacked again and with great loss of life the Jews again > > Finally got it right. I guess one out of three aint bad when you obviously > have an axe to grind and don't give a damn about objective truth. Okay, so what is the objective truth ? > >( I was in Israel at the time, and believe me, it is true). So, Israel > >defended its northern borders during the summer of 1982. OK. > > Went a little overboard for just a "defensive" war I would say. I don't know about this. Maybe they didn't go far enough, Bombs have fallen on the Northern parts of Israel lately. This is what was being prevented in 1982. > >Who were the instigators of each war ? And what were the stated reasons and > >intentions ? > > I would say the 1948 war was a tie (both sides attacked each other). Both sides attacked each other ? , This sounds like the definition of war. > >Back to what I originally said. The Jews spent very much in acquiring the > >country. The loss of life was tremendous (percentagewise). Now we feel that > >Israel has a right to exist as it did exist a few thousand years ago. Why > >is it that everyone insists that Israel give back its land to a group of > >non-unified people who can't even find a representative and which even > >refuses to recognize that Israel exists. > > Personally, I would just like to see a negociated settlement. It would > be nice for starters for "friends" of Israel (no, I don't think you are > doing a bit of good for Israel in the long run) to recognize that neither > side is all wonderful and pure. What do YOU think ought to be done about I do recognize that, of course. > those crummy disorganized people on the West Bank and Gaza? Wanna give > them the vote? Why not -- isn't Israel a democracy? I guess I'll just > wait and see before answering that one myself. I don't know what should be done with them. I want to see what happens after the next Israeli election. But, I do think that the arabs living in Israel should be required to pay taxes just like everyone else and should also be required to serve three years (in some capacity) for the country, just as all other Israelies do. > >As to why "you should care whether the Jews are driven into the sea". There > >are those who believe that Israel is beneficial to the US in the middle east, > >being its only strong ally in the region. > > With friends like this, who need enemies? And what does this mean ?? Elaborate . > >mark > >homxb!mr > > Gene "not Arab not Jewish I think Arabs and Jews and Israel and Egypt > and the Paleatinians etc. etc. are ALL wonderful" Smith > Mark homxb!mr