cdp@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (01/27/86)
Written cramer@kontron.UUCP >Turkey had an election a little while back. While the election process >wasn't as democratic as the U.S. or Western Europe, by comparision >with the elections in Hungary (which you have expressed such enthusiam >for) and the elections in Nicaragua, Turkey's election was quite democratic. Mr Cramer, there is not "much" or "little" democracy. Either there is democracy somewhere or there isn't. In Turkey as every informed person knows there is still dictatorship of the most brutal form, where political prisoners and minorities such as armenians and kurds (sp?) are tortured and sentenced to death every day. Don't forget that chief is still the brutal dictator Evren (sp?). Europe has virtually broken any relations with Turkey.
ekrell@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/30/86)
In article <11000118@uiucdcsb> cdp@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: > >Mr Cramer, there is not "much" or "little" democracy. Either there is democracy >somewhere or there isn't. Of course there is such a thing. You just can't divide all the governments in the world into either 0% democracy or 100% democracy. There are distinct degrees of democracy, measured, among other things, by the freedoms present or absent in that society (freedom of the press, of media access, of speech, of assembly, of travel (inside the country or outside), of being able to work in whatever you want and live where you choose to, labor unions, etc.). Some countries have none of these freedoms, some countries have all of these freedoms and some have a fraction thereof. I would call that different degrees of democracy. -- Eduardo Krell UCLA Computer Science Department ekrell@ucla-locus.arpa ..!{sdcrdcf,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!ekrell
cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (01/31/86)
> > > Written cramer@kontron.UUCP > > >Turkey had an election a little while back. While the election process > >wasn't as democratic as the U.S. or Western Europe, by comparision > >with the elections in Hungary (which you have expressed such enthusiam > >for) and the elections in Nicaragua, Turkey's election was quite democratic. > > Mr Cramer, there is not "much" or "little" democracy. Either there is democracy > somewhere or there isn't. In Turkey as every informed person knows there is > still dictatorship of the most brutal form, where political prisoners and > minorities such as armenians and kurds (sp?) are tortured and sentenced to > death every day. Don't forget that chief is still the brutal dictator > Evren (sp?). Europe has virtually broken any relations with Turkey. The original comment that I was responding to was full of apologies for the Hungarian and Nicaraguan elections -- I was pointing out that RELATIVE to those two countries, Turkey appears to be more democratic. Also, democratic systems aren't hostile to torture and death sentences. Democracy is just a way of making decisions by majority rule -- it certainly is no guarantee of decency.
franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) (02/01/86)
In article <11000118@uiucdcsb> cdp@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU writes: >Mr Cramer, there is not "much" or "little" democracy. Either there is >democracy somewhere or there isn't. A clear and simple statement, which is simply and clearly wrong. There is a continuum from democracies through autocracies to totalitarianisms, and a nation may be anywhere along that spectrum. There are no pure democracies, and no purely totalitarian governments, although there are some pretty good approximations to either extreme. >Europe has virtually broken any relations with Turkey. This is blatantly false. Turkey remains a member of NATO. I have not heard of ANY European nation breaking off relations with Turkey, except Greece. Many European nations have been unhappy about may of the developments in Turkey in the last decade, but this is a long way from breaking off relations. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108
cdp@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU (02/05/86)
If you put it that way I guess I have to agree with you guys. But I still belive that you can call political systems like Turkey's everything but "democracies".