mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (02/04/86)
Nidhal Guessoum writes: > 2) "Torture of Arab prisoners is so widespread and > systematic that it can not be dismissed as "rogue cops" exceeding > orders. It appears to be sanctioned as deliberate policy." > The Sunday Times - June 19, 1977 I think an important issue like this deserves more elaboration. The following are also quotes from the same source: 1. "The practices we have examined have occured throughout the 10 years of Israeli occupation (of the West Bank). There is no reason to believe it has ceased." 2. "Prisoners are often hooded or blindfolded or hung by their wrists for long periods. Many are sexually assaulted. Others are given electric shocks or assaulted with dogs. At least one detention centre has (or had) a specially constructed "cupboard" about two feet square and five feet high with concrete spikes set in the floor." 3. "All Israel's intelligence services are implicated and it is implausible that knowledge of these practices is confined to the interrogators." Is it reasonable to say that this kind of environment contributes to Palestinian terrorism? Is it reasonable to say that torture is another kind of terrorism? A question to Nidhal: Do you know of more recent sources on this? Is torture being used in the west bank today? A quote from chaim Weitzmann, Israel's first president: "I am certain that the world will judge the jewish state by what it shall do with the Arabs." Farzin Mokhtarian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Humans are born crying. When they are tired of crying, they die."
mr@homxb.UUCP (mark) (02/04/86)
> Nidhal Guessoum writes: > > 2) "Torture of Arab prisoners is so widespread and > > systematic that it can not be dismissed as "rogue cops" exceeding > > orders. It appears to be sanctioned as deliberate policy." > > The Sunday Times - June 19, 1977 > > I think an important issue like this deserves more elaboration. The following > are also quotes from the same source: > > 1. "The practices we have examined have occured throughout the 10 years of > Israeli occupation (of the West Bank). There is no reason to believe it has > ceased." > > 2. "Prisoners are often hooded or blindfolded or hung by their wrists for long > periods. Many are sexually assaulted. Others are given electric shocks or > assaulted with dogs. At least one detention centre has (or had) a specially > constructed "cupboard" about two feet square and five feet high with > concrete spikes set in the floor." > > 3. "All Israel's intelligence services are implicated and it is implausible > that knowledge of these practices is confined to the interrogators." The statements above have never been proven conclusively. The NY Times is not necessarily all truthful. Or, perhaps their sources are wrong or lying ?? > Is it reasonable to say that this kind of environment contributes to Palestinian > terrorism? Is it reasonable to say that torture is another kind of terrorism? > > A question to Nidhal: Do you know of more recent sources on this? Is torture > being used in the west bank today? > > A quote from chaim Weitzmann, Israel's first president: > "I am certain that the world will judge the jewish state by what it shall do > with the Arabs." > Farzin Mokhtarian > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Humans are born crying. When they are tired of crying, they die." mark homxb!mr
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (02/06/86)
[]
> Nidhal Guessoum writes:
Bullshit.mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (02/06/86)
Subject: Re: Israeli torture? (NY Times) >> Nidhal Guessoum writes: >>> 2) "Torture of Arab prisoners is so widespread and >>> systematic that it can not be dismissed as "rogue cops" exceeding >>> orders. It appears to be sanctioned as deliberate policy." >>> The Sunday Times - June 19, 1977 I said: >> I think an important issue like this deserves more elaboration. The following >> are also quotes from the same source: >> { details on variuos forms of that torture } > The statements above have never been proven conclusively. > The NY Times is not necessarily all truthful. Or, perhaps their sources are > wrong or lying ?? > mark > homxb!mr Nidhal and I were referring to the Sunday Times of LONDON, ENGLAND not the NY Times!!! I guess you don't really have to know what the source is. If it doesn't side with Israel, it's not telling the truth. Farzin Mokhtarian
mahoney@bach.DEC (02/06/86)
---------------------Reply to mail dated 4-FEB-1986 19:25--------------------- >Posted by: decwrl!decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!homxb!mr >Organization: AT&T - homxb!mr > >> >> I think an important issue like this deserves more elaboration. The following >> are also quotes from the same source: >> >> 1. "The practices we have examined have occured throughout the 10 years of >> Israeli occupation (of the West Bank). There is no reason to believe it has >> ceased." >> >> 2. "Prisoners are often hooded or blindfolded or hung by their wrists for long >> periods. Many are sexually assaulted. Others are given electric shocks or >> assaulted with dogs. At least one detention centre has (or had) a specially >> constructed "cupboard" about two feet square and five feet high with >> concrete spikes set in the floor." >> >> 3. "All Israel's intelligence services are implicated and it is implausible >> that knowledge of these practices is confined to the interrogators." > >The statements above have never been proven conclusively. > >The NY Times is not necessarily all truthful. Or, perhaps their sources are >wrong or lying ?? > > >mark >homxb!mr I am not saying that this did or did not happen I don't know. It is pretty ridiculous to say a source is lying is lied to or whatever though. It seems in this group escpecially when the attack is against Isreal that a certain group of poeple come out to destroy whatever is said. Listen Isreal is not perfect and has probably done things wrong. The US has and so have most countries in the world. There are people who make mistakes and abuse power no matter where they are. Don't just ignore a story because it is negative if this happened then I am sure the proper authorities will take care of it. They may not come out in public and say anything but something will be done. If this happened there are also problems that may need to be dealt with. To just ignore or brush it off because it is negative is wrong and is short-sighted. Brian Mahoney
cramer@sun.uucp (Sam Cramer) (02/06/86)
It appears that Farzin and Nidhal are moving up in the world of press smears
on Israel.
First, Farzin quotes us the august "Kayhann newspaper, published
in London, England." Of course, he refuses to answer any questions
about this little known and most suspect source, stating that "I don't
think there is a need to put that newspaper on trial.."
Then Nidhal, by now famous for his fatuous claims of Islamic tolerance
as exemplified by the regime of well known moderate Ayatollah Khomeini,
introduces the notorious and long discredited Sunday Times (also of London,
England) article on "torture" of Arab prisoners in Israel.
Unfortunately for Nidhal, the Times article is no more credible than the
anti-Israel fantasies of "Kayhaan".
Before I go on to the specifics of the article, let me give you an idea of the
reaction to this article in Britian. After pointing out that the Sunday Times
(by it's own admission) had not bothered to check with the Israeli government
regarding any of the allegations from Arab sources, Lord Salmon, an esteemed
British judge stated "I am saddened that such an article could have been
written and such publicity given to it in such a newspaper."
The Times article is filled with falsehoods and distortions. I'll quote a
couple of the more straight forward ones. Many more exist, and I will happily
discuss them if net.politics readers so desire.
1. The Sunday Times stated the following about a case initiated by
Felicia Langer (a member of the Moscow line Israeli Communist Party who
often defends Arab terrorists):
"The plaintiffs' lawyer was not even allowed to be in court. We found
this procedure remarkable. The Israelis do not deny this."
In response Israeli State Attorney Gabriel Bach stated:
"That, ladies and gentlemen, is absolute rubbish. This case was handled
by the State Attorney's office and my assistant was present at the hearing
of the Supreme Court. Mrs. Felicia Langer appeared in court and her exact
words are on record and available for scrutiny. There is no such thing as
a Supreme Court action in which the representative of the plaintiff cannot
appear."
2. The Sunday Times article related the story of Omar Karim, who had been
found guilty of possession of weapons and membership in a terrorist group.
The Times story stated that Karim was returned to Jordan on a stretcher,
and had claimed to have been mistreated. What the article failed to
mention was the fact that Karim (as documented by medical certificates)
had been very sick for a long period of time previous to his arrest. As
a result of his illness, he asked to be repatriated to Jordan. On
humanitarian grounds, the Israelis complied, despite the fact that he
had been caught with arms and was a member of a terrorist organization.
Collaborating with the Israelis is a capital crime in Jordan, and it
appears likely that Karim fabricated charges of torture to dispell any
suspicion that cooperation with Israeli authorities led to his release.
If, in fact, the Israelis had tortured Karim (which of course they did not),
it would certainly not be logical for them to repatriate him to Jordan,
where he could publicize his mistreatment.
In closing, I'd like to note that the Israeli judiciary is the most respected
govermental institution in that country. It has a well deserved reputation for
independence and fairness. The Israeli courts have acted responsibly when
presented with credible evidence of mistreatment of prisoners or Jewish
terrorism (consider the case of the Jewish "underground" in the West Bank;
many of the perpetrators of these vile crimes are now serving life sentences
in Israeli jails). Claims to the contrary are demonstrably false.
Sam Cramer {decwrl, hplabs, seismo, ucbvax}!sun!cramermokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (02/10/86)
> Lord Salmon, an esteemed > British judge stated "I am saddened that such an article could have been > written and such publicity given to it in such a newspaper." That is not the same as saying that what the newspaper published is false! >2. The Sunday Times article related the story of Omar Karim, who had been > found guilty of possession of weapons and membership in a terrorist group. > The Times story stated that Karim was returned to Jordan on a stretcher, > and had claimed to have been mistreated. What the article failed to > mention was the fact that Karim (as documented by medical certificates) > had been very sick for a long period of time previous to his arrest. The article did mention that. It also mentioned that he was suffering from symptoms not related to his illness. A large number of other Palestinians who claimed to have been tortured were also interviewed. > If, in fact, the Israelis had tortured Karim (which of course they did not) > it would certainly not be logical for them to repatriate him to Jordan, > where he could publicize his mistreatment. [ Sam Cramer ] What would be the logical thing for them to do? Farzin Mokhtarian
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (02/12/86)
>> >>2. The Sunday Times article related the story of Omar Karim, who had been >> found guilty of possession of weapons and membership in a terrorist group. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> The Times story stated that Karim was returned to Jordan on a stretcher, >> and had claimed to have been mistreated. What the article failed to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> mention was the fact that Karim (as documented by medical certificates) >> had been very sick for a long period of time previous to his arrest. > The article did mention that. It also mentioned that he was suffering from > symptoms not related to his illness. A large number of other Palestinians > who claimed to have been tortured were also interviewed. ^^^^^^^ > What would be the logical thing for them to do? > Farzin Mokhtarian This sounds like a leading question. Of course, the logical thing to do is punish the criminal in some way. Some how I just don't have much "rachmonos" (pity) for someone who is found guilty of weapon possesion *anywhere*.
hijab@cad.UUCP (Raif Hijab) (02/12/86)
In article <3222@sun.uucp>, cramer@sun.uucp (Sam Cramer) writes: > > It appears that Farzin and Nidhal are moving up in the world of press smears > on Israel. > > First, Farzin quotes us the august "Kayhann newspaper, published > in London, England." Of course, he refuses to answer any questions > about this little known and most suspect source, stating that "I don't > think there is a need to put that newspaper on trial.." > > Then Nidhal, by now famous for his fatuous claims of Islamic tolerance > as exemplified by the regime of well known moderate Ayatollah Khomeini, > introduces the notorious and long discredited Sunday Times (also of London, > England) article on "torture" of Arab prisoners in Israel. > > Unfortunately for Nidhal, the Times article is no more credible than the > anti-Israel fantasies of "Kayhaan". > > . > . > . > > Sam Cramer {decwrl, hplabs, seismo, ucbvax}!sun!cramer Sam cramer and those with a similar mind bent are the best example of the "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" syndrome. They repeat a lie often enough to themselves and others that they end up believing it. I would like to bring up the following points in support of the London Sunday Times article: 1) Amnesty International, the International Commission of Jurists and other international organizations have reached similar conclusions about torture of Palestinian prisoners in Israerli jails. Law in the Service of Man's "The West Bank and the Rule of Law", Felicia Langer's "With My Own Eyes", reports of the Palestine Human Rights Campaign, and even U.S. state department reports address this issue. 2) Early in the Carter administration, a vice consul at the American Consulate in Jerusalem, Alexandra Johnson, uncovered extensive torture reports while interviewing young Palestinian student visa applicants to the U.S. She collected the data and submitted a report to her superiors. Although initially praised by Secretary of State Vance, she was later fired, and ordered not to publish any of her findings. 3) Numerous cases of Israeli abuse of Palestinians under occupation are reported frequently in the Jewish Press. Unfortunately, with the exception of a vigilant minority of Israelis, most Israelis have come to view such treatment of Palestinians as the accepted norm. 4) Most cases involving Palestinians are not tried in Israeli civilian courts, but rather in military courts set up by the occupation authorities. THe Judicial standards which Sam Cramer refers to apply to Israeli citizens in Israeli civilian courts. The military courts contend they do not have to obey the same standards, pleading security reasons. Many of their deliberations are in secret. If a person is accused on the basis of someone's testimony more often than not they do not get know their accuser or the text of the testimony. In addition, many of the reported cases of torture involve people kept under administrative detention without a charge. Arrest without charge is so common in the occupied territories that a sizable percentage of the adult Palestinian population has been through it. 5) Israeli civilian courts, including the Supreme court, have more often that not refused to see cases due to the military occupation's assertion of the preminence of national security. This includes cases of prisoners as well as land expropriation and settler abuses. 6) The last people likely to be credible witnesses to police and judicial abuses of Palestinian prisoners are the Israeli prosecutors, military judges and occupation authorities. The few cases where the Israeli authorities have admitted to these abuses had come out fully in the open so that it was not feasible to deny them. Invariably these incidents were explained away as "excesses by individuals". On the contrary, the record shows a systematic policy to terrorize the Palestinian population.
cramer@sun.uucp (Sam Cramer) (02/14/86)
Raif Hijab says that I (and those of my ilk) are "the best example of my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" syndrome and further I/we "repeat a lie often enough to themselves and others that they end up believing it." Well, I'll let the net.politics readership decide who is repeating what lies. Raif writes: >2) Early in the Carter administration, a vice consul at the > American Consulate in Jerusalem, Alexandra Johnson, uncovered > extensive torture reports while interviewing young Palestinian > student visa applicants to the U.S. She collected the data > and submitted a report to her superiors. Although initially > praised by Secretary of State Vance, she was later fired, > and ordered not to publish any of her findings. Oops, forgot to tell the rest of the story. It turns out that she was suspected by the Israelis of supporting terrorist (undoubtedly a frame by those devious Israelis, chimes the chorus) and was engaged to marry one of the Arabs whose torture claims she reported. In the wake of the charges a State Department report stated "Israel is a full-fledged democracy with extremely high standards of justice and human rights". But I guess we should instead believe the testimony of various terrorists who are devoted to destroying the State of Israel (taking out quite a few Americans in the process, BTW) rather than that of our Zionist dominated State Department, right Raif? He also quotes Felicia Langer. As I have already pointed out, Ms. Langer is an Israeli Communist who often defends vicious terrorists. The Israeli Communist party, following the Moscow line, is of course opposed to the state of Israel as presently constituted. Quoting Langer on Israeli affairs is like quoting Angela Davis on American affairs. Neither are particularly credible. More relevant (and credible) evidence on the Israeli human rights situation: In 1979 Leo Navas, chairman of the American Bar Association's UN committee toured Israeli jails, interviewing Arab prisoners. He stated "If you ask me, the Israelis are more indulgent over many issues concerned with the rights of individuals than a number of democratic Western countries I could name. And that is without taking into account the situation of war and terrorism that Israel has to deal with and the rest do not." Sam Cramer Usenet: {cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!cramer Arpanet: cramer@sun.arpa -- Sam Cramer {cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,seismo,ucbvax}!sun!cramer