goddard@rochester.UUCP (Nigel Goddard) (02/14/86)
In article <260@hadron.UUCP> jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes: >or practically any distressed group one can imagine. This seems >to be related to the American brand of socialism, which is to >say that those who have often (and unfortunately not always) >will make a point of giving to some central fund to make sure >that those who have not, might. You seem to be confusing socialism with charity. This example underlines the fundamental difference between our European and North American contributors, a difference subtle but profound which has lead to acrimonious exchanges over the Challenger fund. As a European currently living in the U.S.A. it has become clear to me that the major seperation is over the question of the individual versus the collective. That Joseph Yao can call the above formulation a 'brand of socialism' is but an example of the difficulty people here have thinking in terms of the collective. He would have the individual retaining the right to decide whether or not to provide for those in need. In the the U.S.A. this is seen to be an indication of a caring society that takes care of its own (at least if the needy are given to some of the time). From a European persepective (at least mine) this is no more than charity, a word which has severe negative connotations as a social policy. Any collective approach, where the collective (society as a whole) decides whether or not to provide for those in need is seen here as a fundamental attack on individual rights and liberties, encroachment of government to areas outside its proper sphere. Again from my European viewpoint such a collective framework (at least to some extent) is not only necessary but entirely obvious and natural, and poses no threats to my rights or liberties, and indeed is a proper activity of government (being the representative of society). Now one can argue the rights and wrongs of both viewpoints, but my purpose here is to elucidate the basis for the constant misunderstandings apparent in this issue. After many discussions here in the U.S. it seems to me that just as many in Europe do not see the limitations of their democratic institutions and do not understand an emphasis on indivdual rights, many in the U.S.A. do not see the limitations of their power as individuals and do not understand the nature of the collective. These viewpoints are so deeply rooted in historical experience and culture that we will not come to any consensus and would be well advised to accept that other peoples see the world in other ways. The original query from France that sparked this whole debate could have been taken at face value as a question from another culture, rather than as an attack on the U.S. For the sake of clarity I have had to make gross generalisations about U.S. and European attitudes. Of course there is a wide spectrum of opinion on both sides of the Atlantic, but the categorisation is useful. Cheers Nigel Internet: goddard@rochester.arpa UUCP: {decvax, allegra, seismo, cmc12}!rochester!goddard Phone: [USA] (716) 275-5766 School: Department of Computer Science; University of Rochester; Rochester, NY 14627 -- Internet: goddard@rochester.arpa UUCP: {decvax, allegra, seismo, cmc12}!rochester!goddard Phone: [USA] (716) 275-5766 School: Department of Computer Science; University of Rochester; Rochester, NY 14627
jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) (02/17/86)
I had thought I was more or less quoting Alexis de Toqueville,
another European in l'ESA, in referring to America's peculiar
brand of socialism. (You might call it "statistical socialism.")
Prob'ly misquoted. I was educated partly in an English Benedictine
monastery (here in the States), and know something about the
individual power of the collective versus the collective power
of individuals. I should, perhaps, have thought that the people
to whom I was responding knew less than I assumed; but the
question seemed to presume some pre-knowledge of American
social systems.
I wish to declare, as a result of several postings, that I did
not wish to insult anybody with my original posting, but merely
to respond to what appeared to be an insult from one who should
know better. Later postings showed that he was not, in fact,
as aware of these differences as I had erroneously assumed, and
that therefore no insult had been intended.
CAN WE STOP THIS NOW PLEASE?
--
Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP}hsu@eneevax.UUCP (Dave Hsu) (02/18/86)
In article <263@hadron.UUCP> jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) writes: > >I wish to declare, as a result of several postings, that I did >not wish to insult anybody with my original posting, but merely >to respond to what appeared to be an insult from one who should >know better. Later postings showed that he was not, in fact, >as aware of these differences as I had erroneously assumed, and >that therefore no insult had been intended. > >CAN WE STOP THIS NOW PLEASE? >-- > > Joe Yao hadron!jsdy@seismo.{CSS.GOV,ARPA,UUCP} ditto. -dave -- David Hsu Communication & Signal Processing Lab, EE Department <disclaimer> University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 hsu@eneevax.umd.edu {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu "Godzilla has been spotted in Sector 5!"