ix442@sdcc6.UUCP (Nidhal Guessoum) (01/10/86)
In this article, I will try to answer some of the responses my previous posting regarding Islamic tolerance got.I should first remind everybody that my original article came in response to Mr. Martillo's article, which stated that > non-muslims were assigned second class status and humiliation > by Islamic law... and that > at times, there have been Muslim rulers who treated non-muslims > much better than Islamic law permits...the individual and not > Islam deserves the credit... I am reminding you of all that because after I showed thru the Islamic principles and the Islamic history that such a claim had absolutely no basis, people started saying that it is obvious that you won't find such statements in the Holy Books ( which supports my statements, not Mr. Martillo's ), and that you should look instead into the traditions of people. Well first, that has nothing to do with Mr. Martillo's original attack on the Islamic Law, not the traditions , or with my reply, and second even that can be argued upon , as I will try to show later. Many other people took the opportunity to assail muslim communities' relations with Jewish communities living in the so-called Islamic countries.(By the way, may be I would agree on calling Iran an Islamic country, in that its laws are based on Islamic juridiction, but certainly not countries such as Syria - remember the massacres of Hamma ?...) Anyway, I never said that muslim communities constitute perfect peoples. Especially not in recent eras.. I must say here that I had never heard of the 5000 Jews supposedly killed in "Grandada" ( I assume the person is refering to Granada, Spain ) in 1066, or of the 6000 of Fez in 1033. Let me just point out that the Muslims arrived in Spain around 711. I can't figure out why they would have waited until 1066 to murder 5000 Jews, if their religion condoned it ... Likewise for Fez, Morocco where they arrived in the middle of the 7th century. In any case, one can expect excesses, and irresponsable acts against non-muslims; the point is : such actions have no legal basis in Islam, on the contrary. So much for the introduction, let me take a few of the interesting comments made regarding my previous posting, and try to answer them in an objective manner. Regarding violence against the Copts in Egypt, someone told about an incident dating from 1972 ( God knows what the reasons for this one were .) Living aside the argument of non-perfectness of the muslims, my comment is this : How does the rate of attacks against Jewish and Christian communities in the Islamic world compare with the violence to which the Islamic population of the West-Bank is subjected to : bombs against Arab mayors (remember Bessam Chekaa and the others ?) , bombs in the Islamic University of ( was it Naplouse ?) by Jewish extremists, burning of the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, killing and torture by the Israeli police almost on an everyday basis ( I can give references, but this point is secondary here...) Regarding the statistics of Jews living in the Arab world, Chedley Aouriri has already remarked that they are wrong. Let me just emphasize that Tunisia has much more than 5000 Jews ( who have no problem whatsoever ) , and that Algeria has several thousand Jews, not 500 . I know something about Tunisia and Algeria...And let me note that since we are talking about ISLAMIC tolerance, we should also mention the Jews of Iran ( a large community, especially in Tehran) who, to my knowledge, have not suffered any attacks, even after the Islamic revolution. I want to come to Matt Rosenblatt's interesting, and at first troubling comments regarding The Qur'an's position vis-a-vis non-muslims. After reading the verses he quotes, I immediately felt there was something wrong, because they ( the quotes ) did not fit in my view and knowledge of The Qur'an.( Someone said Matt took the "bad verses" of The Qur'an and drew conclusions from them. Well it wasn't even that...) So I went back to my copy of The Qur'an ( original Arabic version ) , and to my English translation of it. And yes, some of his quotes were outrageously wrong. See for yourself : 1) " Believers , take neither the Jews or Christians for your friends ..." Qur'an according to Matt Rosenblatt... The Arabic word that he ( or he "translation") translates as "friends" is "awleah," which means "rulers and protectors," not friends ( then it makes sense .) Ask anyone who has some knowledge of classical Arabic. I am a Muslim, and I have numerous friends who are Muslim,Jewish, Christian,or even Atheist. No problem with that... 2) " If the people of The Book accept the true faith and keep from evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the gardens of delight." so far so good... But then : "If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what IS (??) revealed to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from above and from beneath" Qur'an according to Matt.. In fact, the world IS should be WAS (!!!), refering to ..The Bible.. Then it makes sense...The Qur'an makes it clear in several verses ( including this one ) that Jews and Christians are allowed to keep their faith and tradition. As long as they do follow it, they will enter Paradise... 3) Regarding the Prophet's actions, if the only problem Matt has is regarding the punishment os Beni-Qurayda, good. Because the reason for that one is simple : the Jews of Medina betrayed the mutual defense pact they had signed with Muhammad by allowing his enemies to infiltrate thru the Jewish part of Medina during the battle of "Al-Ahzab" ( the tribes ),when a coalition of Arabian tribes came to Medina to try to destroy the Islamic state. Afterwards, Muhammad decided to punish the Jewish community of Qurayda by burning some of their palm trees ( economic sanctions ) and executed only about a dozen of them. ( I have no idea where you got the figure of 800. Did you think he threw an atomic bomb on them or something ?) I still have a few more clarifications to make, but this posting is already too long. Please no cheap attacks. Respectfully, Nidhal Guessoum... "
cramer@sun.uucp (Sam Cramer) (01/12/86)
Nidhal Guessoum is woefully ignorant of the status of Jews in Moslem lands. He states > And let me > note that since we are talking about ISLAMIC tolerance, we should > also mention the Jews of Iran ( a large community, especially in > Tehran) who, to my knowledge, have not suffered any attacks, even > after the Islamic revolution. The case of Iran exemplifies what we can expect of "ISLAMIC tolerance". Contrary to Nidhal's "knowledge", Jews in Iran are fiercely persecuted by the Islamic regime. Since the revolution, more than 30,000 Jews have left Iran, stripped of their possessions. More than 400 hundred are in jail, and more than 10 have been executed for crimes such as "importing honey from Israel", "recieving letters from relatives in Israel", "cooperation with Zionism and the state of Israel", and "corruption on earth". Those Jews remaining in Iran are not free to leave, and their position is most precarious. Note that this persecution is not persecution of "Zionists" as such - it is persecution of Jews. Khomeini stated in his book "Confronting Israel": "Oh brothers! Let us not regard this holy and sacrificial war as a war between Arabs and Israel. Let us regard it as a war of all Moslems together against Jews and their leaders." Islamic tolerance, indeed. Sam Cramer sun!cramer
cramer@sun.uucp (Sam Cramer) (01/12/86)
Attempting to diminish the seriousness of violence against Egyptian Christians, Nidhal states > my comment is this : How does the rate of attacks against > Jewish and Christian communities in the Islamic world compare > with the violence to which the Islamic population of the West-Bank > is subjected to : bombs against Arab mayors (remember Bessam > Chekaa and the others ?) , bombs in the Islamic University of > ( was it Naplouse ?) by Jewish extremists, burning of the Aqsa > mosque in Jerusalem, killing and torture by the Israeli police > almost on an everyday basis ( I can give references... A few points. First, even if we suppose that this is an accurate representation of the state of affairs in the West Bank (which it is not), it would not justify Muslim oppression of minorities in their lands. Now, on the the "facts": 1. Bombings: The bombings of the West Bank mayors and the armed attack (not a bombing, by the way) on the Islamic college were criminal acts under Israeli law. The Israeli goverment prosecuted and punished the guilty parties. I am unaware of any respectable Israeli figure (I am here excluding the despicable bigot Meir Kahane) who views these attacks than anything other than what they are - vile criminal deeds. 2. The El-Aqsa mosque: The El-Aqsa mosque was the scene of attempted arson by a crazed Australian non-Jew. He was apprehended by the Israelis and is, I believe, in an Israeli or Australian mental hospital. 3. Torture and execution: > killing and torture by Israeli police almost on an everyday basis This is a lie. Israel has applied the death penalty once, against Adolf Eichmann. It has never executed any Arab. Allegations of torture, perenially popular in the Arab world (probably a case of psychological projection), are unsubstantiated. According to the State Department's 1978 "Country Reports on Human Rights Practices" "We know of no evidence to support allegations that Israel ollows a consistent practice or policy of using torture during interrogations". I challenge Nidhal to produce evidence of "killing and torture by Israeli police almost on an everyday basis." Sam Cramer sun!cramer
minow@decvax.UUCP (Martin Minow) (01/13/86)
The following attempts to shed some light on the experiences of the Jews in Spain under Moslem rule. It is HEAVILY condensed and abstracted from Felipe Torroba Bernaldo de Quir'os. The Spanish Jews. Madrid, 1972. translated by John I. Palmer. "There is no doubt that the Jews cooperated in the Moslem invasion. this is not suprising, when they had suffered so much under the Visigoths. ... It was then that the golden age began for the Spanish Jews, an age that lasted more than three centuries. They settled in all parts and prospered everywhere. They met an atmosphere of toleration --- characteristic of the Arabs in their conquests --- and the two religions, though unreconciliable, united against the symbol of the Cross.... "The Hebrews did not hesitate to dress as Arabs, to adopt their customs and language.... "At the end of the 11th century the Almoravide wave fell upon Moslem Spain. The sons of the desert --- who veiled their faces, perhaps, as a poet was to say, to conceal the shame of their barbarity --- were led by the fierce Yusuf, who obliged his camel-drivers to cross the Straits.... Yusuf hardly knew Arabic, and when in the refined court of Motamid the king's poets presented him with their verses, he confined himself to saying, ``I don't understand them, but I know they are asking for bread.'' "Yusuf the Almoravide, covetus of the wealth of Lucena [the foremost Jewish city in Spain], arrived before the city gates with his ferocious warriors. Advised by his scholars, who hated the Hebrews, he put before the Jewish community the dilemmma: mass conversion to Mahommedanism, or they would be put to the sword. The rabbis warded off the danger for the moment, and managed to placate Yusuf by offering him gold.... "The invasion of the Almohades, as fanatical as the Almoravides or more so, who believed themselves the people chosen by Mahomet to extend the dominion of Islam throughout the world, brought all kinds of misfortune to the Hebrews. The Almohades attacked the churches of the Christians, but also the Jewish synagogues.... In Andalusia a fierce persecution was unleashed against the Jews, whose synagogues were destroyed by fire and sword. The persecution reached its peak in the country around Cordoba, and Lucena was rased to the ground. Thus there disappeared all that had been built throughout long years in which the two Semitic races had lived toghethers; ``those cultural exchanges that contributed to the greatest splendour of Moslem Spain, which was the protagonist of Eastern civilization in the West and the best bulwark of a culture that created some original ways o flife and some suprising modes of living together.''" transcribed by Martin Minow decvax!minow
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/15/86)
<46@ubc-vision.UUCP> cancelled from rn.
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/15/86)
<49@ubc-vision.UUCP> cancelled from rn.
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/15/86)
Subject: Re: Islamic Tolerance > The case of Iran exemplifies what we can expect of "ISLAMIC > tolerance". Contrary to Nidhal's "knowledge", Jews in Iran are > fiercely persecuted by the Islamic regime. Since the revolution, more > than 30,000 Jews have left Iran, stripped of their possessions. More > than 400 hundred are in jail, and more than 10 have been executed > Sam Cramer sun!cramer If one compares figures like ~10 executed and ~400 jailed to the number of people in the non-jewish population who have been executed or imprisoned by the Khomeini regime, one will probably conclude that the Iranian jews have done quite well under Khomeini relative to the rest of the population. "Fiercely persecuted"? I don't know about that. Yes, a large number have left the country, and where to? Israel of course. Thanks to an agreement between the Khomeini regime and Israel. ***They trade jews for arms from Israel*** and they do it in spite of a ban by the U.S. government on sale of arms to the Khomeini regime. Perhaps this explains why the administration has chosen Ghazzaafi for its verbal attacks and is keeping quiet about Iran when Iran is the place where the terrorists responsible for murders in Rome and Vienna were trained. Who knows, maybe those terrorists were trained with those Israeli arms. Farzin Mokhtarian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Just what the truth is, I can't tell anymore."
matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) (01/15/86)
> I want to come to Matt Rosenblatt's interesting, and at first > troubling comments regarding The Qur'an's position vis-a-vis > non-muslims. After reading the verses he quotes, I immediately > felt there was something wrong, because they ( the quotes ) > did not fit in my view and knowledge of The Qur'an. . . . > . . . So I went back to my copy > of The Qur'an ( original Arabic version ) , and to my English > translation of it. And yes, some of his quotes were outrageously > wrong. [NIDHAL GUESSOUM] Maybe they WERE wrong. The translation I used was that of N. J. Dawood (Penguin Books, first published in 1956). The note on the translator says: "N. J. Dawood has also translated The Thousand and One Nights and Aladdin and Other Tales for the Penguin Classics. Born in Baghdad,he came to England as an Iraq State Scholar in 1945 and graduated from London University. He is a director of Contemporary Translations Ltd and managing director of The Arabic Advertising and Publishing Company Ltd, London. He has edited and abridged The Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun, translated numerous technical works into Arabic, and contributed to specialized English-Arabic dictionaries. He has retold for children a comprehensive selection of tales from The Arabian Nights, which will be published shortly in an illustrated edition." A pretty sharp guy, but nowhere does it say he is a devout Muslim. So I would expect devout Muslims to look on his translation the way Orthodox Jews look on some of the newer translations of the Bible made by Reform Jews who don't really believe in the factuality of Biblical accounts. The point I want to make clear is that it is NOT the "Qur'an according to Matt Rosenblatt," but the Qur'an according to N. J. Dawood, that I quoted. > 2) " If the people of The Book accept the true faith and keep > from evil, We will pardon them their sins and admit them to the > gardens of delight." so far so good... But then : > "If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what IS (??) revealed > to them from Allah, they shall be given abundance from above and > from beneath" Qur'an according to Matt.. > In fact, the world IS should be WAS (!!!), refering to ..The Bible.. > Then it makes sense...The Qur'an makes it clear in several verses > ( including this one ) that Jews and Christians are allowed to keep > their faith and tradition. As long as they do follow it, they will > enter Paradise... [N. GUESSOUM] Is it clear that Jews can get away with observing only the Torah and not the Gospel, even if "They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did." (Qur'an, Chapter 4, "Women") Especially since the Jews deny the Divine authority of the Qur'an itself, and believe that the Prophet (Allah's blessing and peace upon him and his Companions) made it up himself -- how is such an unbeliever to enter Paradise? Doesn't a Jew or Christian at least have to admit that the Qur'an is from Allah? What does the Qur'an mean, "accept the true faith," if not "accept the validity of Islam"? > 3) Regarding the Prophet's actions, if the only problem Matt has > is regarding the punishment of Beni-Qurayda, good. Because the > reason for that one is simple : the Jews of Medina betrayed the > mutual defense pact they had signed with Muhammad by allowing his > enemies to infiltrate thru the Jewish part of Medina during the > battle of "Al-Ahzab" ( the tribes ),when a coalition of Arabian > tribes came to Medina to try to destroy the Islamic state. > Afterwards, Muhammad decided to punish the Jewish community of > Qurayda by burning some of their palm trees ( economic sanctions ) > and executed only about a dozen of them. [N. GUESSOUM] Decided WHAT??? To punish the Jewish community of Qurayda for something the Jews of Medina did? Good thing Matt Rosenblatt does not attempt to judge the Prophet's actions (Allah's blessing and peace upon him and his Companions) by the "Enlightenment" standards employed by most people on this net. > ( I have no idea where you > got the figure of 800. Did you think he threw an atomic bomb on them > or something ?) [N. GUESSOUM] The figure of 800 Jews, and the statement that they were beheaded (not nuked), comes from the Chronological Table of the Main Events in the Life of Mohammed (Allah's blessing and peace upon him & his Companions) that follows N. J. Dawood's introduction to his translation of the Qur'an. Is Mr. Guessoum sure he is talking about the same community of Jews as I am? There were the Quraysh, the Qurayza, and who knows what other Jewish outfits. Nowhere in his article does Mr. Guessoum tell us what the Shari'a is with regard to so-called "second-class citizenship" for Jews and Christians in Muslim lands. I do not write with the intention of condemning the Shari'a if, for example, it forbids intermarriage between Muslim women and non- Muslim men -- the Torah (l'havdil) forbids intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles, and has been branded "racist" by secular Israelis for doing so. If the Shari'a, based on the Qur'an, says that Jews and Christians may not be rulers and officers over Muslims in Muslim lands, only "Enlightened" Westerners would fault that -- Jewish law, as codified by Maimonides, says that non-Jews may not be rulers and officers in the Jewish land (i.e., Israel). The Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Shari'a stand on their own in the Dar al Islam. Now, if Muslims attempted to apply their law in Christendom or the Atheist USSR, they'd have a fight on their hands, and justifiably so, the same as if Jews attempted to apply Torah law to non-Jews outside the Land of Israel. By the same token, the mistake the "Enlightened" Westerners make is assuming that their liberalism has universal validity, and judging other societies, ESPECIALLY religious ones (which they really hate -- Voltaire and the other _philosophes_ detested the Church more than anything), by liberal, "Enlightenment" standards. This mistake has earned Westerners the justified resentment of, for example, the Muslim peoples. When it comes to obeying the Seven Noahide Laws that Jews believe G-d decreed for non-Jews to observe, a Muslim society passes the test, while a liberal, "Enlightened" society fails. Consider: Law Muslim attitude "Enlightened" attitude 1. Recognize G-d exists accepts rejects 2. No blasphemy against Him accepts blasphemy legal 3. No murder accepts accepts 4. No stealing accepts accepts 5. No sexual immorality (incest, adultery, accepts any sex between consenting homosexuality) adults is legal 6. No eating a limb cut from a living animal I don't know forbids cruelty to animals 7. Set up courts to punish sets up courts to punish violators of Laws 1-6, accepts violators of SOME laws; including capital punish- rejects capital punishment ment > I still have a few more clarifications to make, but this posting is > already too long. Please no cheap attacks. > > Respectfully, > > Nidhal Guessoum... In my previous posting, I had King David saying something to the Ammonites that, in reality, Jephthah said. Sorry about the misattribution, but the statement still applies: "Wilt thou not accept that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the L-rd our G-d hath dispossessed from before us, them will we possess" (Judges 11:24). If Jews can't be officers in Muslim lands, that's fine, because Jews really shouldn't be living in Muslim lands in the first place, now that there's an Israel. One does not have to believe in a religion in order to have respect for it. If Islam is in some respects "intolerant" by Western standards, then let the Westerners not establish Islam in Europe and America. But Allah has seen fit to take Palestine away from the Dar al Islam and return it to the possession of the Israelites whose ancestors lost it ages ago on account of their sins. Accept the will of Allah, accept the primacy of Jewish law in the Jewish Land, and you will have no problem with religious Jews' accepting the primacy of Islam in Islamic lands, regardless of what the "Enlightened" unbelievers of the West say about "Islamic Tolerance." -- Matt Rosenblatt - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRUTH JUSTICE FREEDOM YIDDISHKEIT IVY THE AMERICAN WAY
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/19/86)
Subject: Islamic Tolerance? yhl@ihuxk.UUCP (y levendel) writes: > ... arm sales between Iran and Israel will not give absolution to > Iran no more than arms sales between Israel and South Africa give > absolution to South Africa. And what will give absolution to Israel? I can understand (NOT agree) arms sales between Israel and South Africa! That's only another sale of arms from a "democratic" country to yet another repressive country. We are used to those. But supplying arms to Iran is very different. I believe it says a lot about the intentions of Israel. Israel has been arming a state which trains terrorists and these terrorists are supposed to target the U.S. and Israel. Some of these terrorists were responsible for murders in Rome and Vienna. What kind of a policy is this? Israel itself has already been turned into a fortress. It is mainly jewish and American centers in Europe that will come under attack. The Palestinian cause has recently gained some sympathy in Europe. Is this the price that has to be paid to discredit the Palestinians? I am genuinely interested in knowing about any other motivations. Farzin Mokhtarian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Gods must be crazy."
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/19/86)
> yhl@ihuxk.UUCP (y levendel) writes: > > ... arm sales between Iran and Israel will not give absolution to > > Iran no more than arms sales between Israel and South Africa give > > absolution to South Africa. > > And what will give absolution to Israel? > I can understand (NOT agree) arms sales between Israel and South Africa! > That's only another sale of arms from a "democratic" country to yet another > repressive country. We are used to those. But supplying arms to Iran is very > different. I believe it says a lot about the intentions of Israel. Where is some proof that Israel supplies arms to Iran on a regular basis ? (I don't mean in return for Iranian Jewish hostages). > Israel has been arming a state which trains terrorists and these terrorists > are supposed to target the U.S. and Israel. Some of these terrorists were > responsible for murders in Rome and Vienna. > What kind of a policy is this? Is it really policy ? or just a one time thing to save the lives of some Jews in Iran ? > Israel itself has already been turned into a fortress. It is mainly jewish > and American centers in Europe that will come under attack. The Palestinian > cause has recently gained some sympathy in Europe. Is this the price that If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans don't like bombs in their airports and the like. > has to be paid to discredit the Palestinians? I am genuinely interested in > knowing about any other motivations. > > Farzin Mokhtarian > mark homxb!mr
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (01/21/86)
> [Farzin Mokhtarian] (sp?) > But supplying arms to Iran is very > different. I believe it says a lot about the intentions of Israel. > > Israel has been arming a state which trains terrorists and these terrorists > are supposed to target the U.S. and Israel. Some of these terrorists were > responsible for murders in Rome and Vienna. > > What kind of a policy is this? > > Israel itself has already been turned into a fortress. It is mainly jewish > and American centers in Europe that will come under attack. The Palestinian > cause has recently gained some sympathy in Europe. Is this the price that > has to be paid to discredit the Palestinians? I am genuinely interested in > knowing about any other motivations. ----- Israel views Iraq (a potentially powerful Arab country) as a greater enemy in the long run than Iran, a non-Arab country which under the Shah had friendly relations with Israel and was Israel's main oil supplier. Israel has always viewed the armies of the Arab states as the main threat to its existence, not terrorism. Israel would not like Iraq to win the war. I presume, Farzin, that in your next posting you will claim that Israel directly supports Abu Nidal in order to discredit the Palestinians. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/22/86)
>From: mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) Subject: Re: Islamic tolerance (is not the subject) > Where is some proof that Israel supplies arms to Iran on a regular > basis ? (I don't mean in return for Iranian Jewish hostages). 1. Those jews were not "hostages" in the usual interpretation of the word. 2. Israel has been supplying arms to Iran on a regular basis in return for Iranian jews. How's that? >> Israel has been arming a state which trains terrorists and these terrorists >> are supposed to target the U.S. and Israel. Some of these terrorists were >> responsible for murders in Rome and Vienna. >> What kind of a policy is this? > Is it really policy ? or just a one time thing to save the lives of some Jews > in Iran ? Are you really asking or are you just relying on my ignorance of the facts? 1. It has NOT been a one time thing. At least 20 to 30 thousand jews have left this way in small groups of 2 to 3 hundred so it has been going on for some time. 2. The lives of those jews were not in danger any more than the lives of the rest of the people. > If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans > don't like bombs in their airports and the like. No, I wouldn't either. But the Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists. Farzin Mokhtarian
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/22/86)
Subject: Re: Islamic tolerance (is not the subject) > Israel views Iraq (a potentially powerful Arab country) as a greater enemy > in the long run than Iran, a non-Arab country which under the Shah had > friendly relations with Israel and was Israel's main oil supplier. Israel > has always viewed the armies of the Arab states as the main threat to its > existence, not terrorism. Israel would not like Iraq to win the war. > -- > Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan 1. Iran under Khomeini is very different from Iran under the shah. No matter what the state of the past relations between Iran and Israel, it doesn't apply to the present day Iran. 2. It is Khomeini who has announced his intentions to liberate Palestine when he gets Iraq out of the way not Saddaam Hosein. Do you have proof that he intends to do otherwise? 3. Israel is militarily superior to the combined armies of *all* the Arab countries. I don't believe that fear of a possible Iraqi victory would convince Israel to arm the ayatollah. 4. I agree that terrorism does not threaten the existence of Israel. Is this a good enough reason for Israel to arm the terrorists? What about all the people who are killed by the terrorists? Farzin Mokhtarian
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (01/23/86)
> > If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans > > don't like bombs in their airports and the like. > > No, I wouldn't either. But the Europeans know better than to just blame the > terrorists. > Farzin Mokhtarian "The Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists." Well then, what or who DO they blame. I have read NOWHERE where the European communities have blamed anyone other than the terrorists for the crimes the terrorists have committed. Of course, YOU would like to see them blame Israel. There is absolutely no proof for anything of that sort except another attempt to find a guinea pig.
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (01/23/86)
> 3. Israel is militarily superior to the combined armies of *all* the Arab > countries. I don't believe that fear of a possible Iraqi victory would > convince Israel to arm the ayatollah. > 4. I agree that terrorism does not threaten the existence of Israel. Is this > a good enough reason for Israel to arm the terrorists? What about all the > people who are killed by the terrorists? > Farzin Mokhtarian > Again, you are trying to make Israel the guinea pigs for the woes of the world. Sorry, no chance will anyone fall for that line (except out of ignorance). You make it sound like Israel ALONE is arming the ayatollah and the terrorists, all in one swoop. Your information is pretty weak.
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (01/23/86)
> > [Me] > > Israel views Iraq (a potentially powerful Arab country) as a greater enemy > > in the long run than Iran, a non-Arab country which under the Shah had > > friendly relations with Israel and was Israel's main oil supplier. Israel > > has always viewed the armies of the Arab states as the main threat to its > > existence, not terrorism. Israel would not like Iraq to win the war. > > Farzin Mokhtarian > 1. Iran under Khomeini is very different from Iran under the shah. No matter > what the state of the past relations between Iran and Israel, it doesn't > apply to the present day Iran. ----- But it might to a future Iran. Iran, after all, is not an Arab country. ----- > 2. It is Khomeini who has announced his intentions to liberate Palestine when > he gets Iraq out of the way not Saddaam Hosein. Do you have proof that he > intends to do otherwise? ----- Khomeini won't live that long. ----- > 3. Israel is militarily superior to the combined armies of *all* the Arab > countries. I don't believe that fear of a possible Iraqi victory would > convince Israel to arm the ayatollah. ----- The precarious status of Iranian Jews is also relevent. Also, the military superiority of Israel is not an axiom. It needs work. ----- > 4. I agree that terrorism does not threaten the existence of Israel. Is this > a good enough reason for Israel to arm the terrorists? What about all the > people who are killed by the terrorists? ----- Israel does not arm the terrorists. Iran (Libya, Syria, etc.) arm the terrorists. Are you suggesting that Israel gives arms to Iran so that Iran can give them to terrorists? Pretty despicable accusation, if you really mean it. It's amazing what contortions you will go through to blame Israel for everything and anything. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/23/86)
Subject: Re: Islamic tolerance (is not the subject) >>> If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans >>> don't like bombs in their airports and the like. >> No, I wouldn't either. But the Europeans know better than to just blame the >> terrorists. > "The Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists." Well then, > what or who DO they blame. [ H. D. Weisberg ] Many of them blame the situation which gives rise to that terrorism. Many people see it as an expected consequence of the Palestinian problem. They don't support terrorism but they don't support what created this situation either. Farzin Mokhtarian
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/23/86)
Subject: Re: Islamic tolerance (is not the subject) H. D. Weisberg (brandx@ihlpl.UUCP) writes: > Again, you are trying to make Israel the guinea pigs for the woes of the > world. Sorry, no chance will anyone fall for that line (except out of > ignorance). You make it sound like Israel ALONE is arming the ayatollah > and the terrorists, all in one swoop. Your information is pretty weak. Fine. Israel is ONE OF the countries that is arming the ayatollah and the terrorists. Is that better? Farzin Mokhtarian
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/23/86)
> > Where is some proof that Israel supplies arms to Iran on a regular Organization: AT&T - homxb!mr Lines: 41 > > basis ? (I don't mean in return for Iranian Jewish hostages). > 1. Those jews were not "hostages" in the usual interpretation of the word. > 2. Israel has been supplying arms to Iran on a regular basis in return for > Iranian jews. How's that? This sounds a bit like the Jews in Iran are being held against their will, since they have to be "returned" to Israel in return for arms. > >> Israel has been arming a state which trains terrorists and these terrorists > >> are supposed to target the U.S. and Israel. Some of these terrorists were > >> responsible for murders in Rome and Vienna. > >> What kind of a policy is this? > > Is it really policy ? or just a one time thing to save the lives of some Jews > > in Iran ? > Are you really asking or are you just relying on my ignorance of the facts? Oh, so you admit ignorance ? > 1. It has NOT been a one time thing. At least 20 to 30 thousand jews have left > this way in small groups of 2 to 3 hundred so it has been going on for some > time. Why did 20-30 thousand leave their homes ? I though islamic tolerance is pervasive ? > 2. The lives of those jews were not in danger any more than the lives of the > rest of the people. Oh No, definitely not !!! > > If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans > > don't like bombs in their airports and the like. > No, I wouldn't either. But the Europeans know better than to just blame the > terrorists. Yes, even more to blame are the people who back terrorists. > Farzin Mokhtarian mark homxb!mr
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/23/86)
> > Israel views Iraq (a potentially powerful Arab country) as a greater enemy > > in the long run than Iran, a non-Arab country which under the Shah had > > friendly relations with Israel and was Israel's main oil supplier. Israel > > has always viewed the armies of the Arab states as the main threat to its > > existence, not terrorism. Israel would not like Iraq to win the war. > > Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan > 1. Iran under Khomeini is very different from Iran under the shah. No matter > what the state of the past relations between Iran and Israel, it doesn't > apply to the present day Iran. > 2. It is Khomeini who has announced his intentions to liberate Palestine when > he gets Iraq out of the way not Saddaam Hosein. Do you have proof that he > intends to do otherwise? > 3. Israel is militarily superior to the combined armies of *all* the Arab We should only hope so. > countries. I don't believe that fear of a possible Iraqi victory would > convince Israel to arm the ayatollah. > 4. I agree that terrorism does not threaten the existence of Israel. Is this Not the existence, but the safety of the people within. > a good enough reason for Israel to arm the terrorists? What about all the > people who are killed by the terrorists? > Farzin Mokhtarian mark homxb!mr
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (01/23/86)
In article <64@ubc-vision.UUCP> mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes: >> "The Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists." Well then, >> what or who DO they blame. [ H. D. Weisberg ] > >Many of them blame the situation which gives rise to that terrorism. >Many people see it as an expected consequence of the Palestinian problem. >They don't support terrorism but they don't support what created this >situation either. Ah. You mean they don't support the acts of the Arab countries, which by maintaining a state of war with Israel and keeping the Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps (INCLUDING 1948-1967) have created this "Palestinian problem" you refer to. Well, then, I agree. Dave Sherman Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (01/23/86)
> > > basis ? (I don't mean in return for Iranian Jewish hostages). > > 1. Those jews were not "hostages" in the usual interpretation of the word. > > 2. Israel has been supplying arms to Iran on a regular basis in return for > > Iranian jews. How's that? Some people are trying to propagate lies that Israel is supplying arms to Iran. Other take this as fact and try to explain why Israel is doing so. But it seems that no attempt is made to find whether the source of the story is true. Israel has denied the story and there is no evidence to support it. (It is possible that the Iranians are purchasing Israeli licensed hardware from non-Israeli sources.) -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (01/24/86)
> > Israel views Iraq (a potentially powerful Arab country) as a greater enemy > > in the long run than Iran, a non-Arab country which under the Shah had > > friendly relations with Israel and was Israel's main oil supplier. Israel > > has always viewed the armies of the Arab states as the main threat to its > > existence, not terrorism. Israel would not like Iraq to win the war. > > -- > > Bill Tanenbaum > > 1. Iran under Khomeini is very different from Iran under the shah. No matter > what the state of the past relations between Iran and Israel, it doesn't > apply to the present day Iran. Not necessarily. First, Iran remains a non-Arab state. Second, the current good services may be well-remembered in the future. The future government need not to be Khomeinistic, and even Iran's opposition does not Iraq to win. > 2. It is Khomeini who has announced his intentions to liberate Palestine when > he gets Iraq out of the way not Saddaam Hosein. Do you have proof that he > intends to do otherwise? The true situation is that nobody wishes any side of this conflict to prevail. The domination of either of those unsaviory regimes would be very dangerous. Iraq leaders dream about unification of the Golden crescent: Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon and oil-producing Iranian Khuzestan. A defeat of Iran would make it plausible. > 3. Israel is militarily superior to the combined armies of *all* the Arab > countries. I don't believe that fear of a possible Iraqi victory would > convince Israel to arm the ayatollah. Israel may be militarily superior to the combined armies of *all* arab countries. But only because those armies fear one another more than Israel: e.g. the Israeli occupation of Jordan (or Syria etc.) is out of question, but Syria would gladly swallow Jordan, and Iraq would gladly swallow Syria. If this would not be the case, the multimilion force equipped in some of the most modern weaponry (like planes from Saudi Arabia) would conquer Israel within weeks. > 4. I agree that terrorism does not threaten the existence of Israel. Is this > a good enough reason for Israel to arm the terrorists? What about all the > people who are killed by the terrorists? Supplying spare parts for military aircrafts is not equivalent to arming the terrorists. Also, Abu Nidal used to be Iraq's protege. To deal with nice guys only, Israel would need to relocate to Scandinavia. It is not Israel's fault that not only her adversaries, but also adversaries of adversaries support terrorist. > Farzin Mokhtarian Piotr Berman
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/24/86)
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) writes: > Israel does not arm the terrorists. Iran (Libya, Syria, etc.) arm the > terrorists. Are you suggesting that Israel gives arms to Iran so that > Iran can give them to terrorists? Pretty despicable accusation, if > you really mean it. It's amazing what contortions you will go through > to blame Israel for everything and anything. I don't know whether it is Israel's intention that those arms be given to the terrorists or not but Israel *knows* that some of them will be given to the terrorists. I think you are telling me that this is fine because it is not Israel which determines what will be done with the arms. BUT there is a dual side to this. All countries (such as Libya, Syria, Iran) which run "terrorist camps" on their soil are just teaching certain military skills to the people in those camps. Similar camps exist in the U. S. But people who run them don't determine what their graduates do with their skills. Only when they use their skills to kill civilians, do they become terrorists. I am not happy with this argument, are you? Farzin Mokhtarian
mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP (Farzin Mokhtarian) (01/25/86)
>From: dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) Subject: Re: Islamic tolerance (is not the subject) > Ah. You mean they don't support the acts of the Arab countries, > which by maintaining a state of war with Israel and keeping the > Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps (INCLUDING 1948-1967) have > created this "Palestinian problem" you refer to. > Dave Sherman So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the Palestinians? If it's that easy, why wasn't the jewish problem solved by absorbing them into other friendly countries? Farzin Mokhtarian
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/26/86)
>>>> If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans >>>> don't like bombs in their airports and the like. > >>> No, I wouldn't either. But the Europeans know better than to just blame the >>> terrorists. > >> "The Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists." Well then, >> what or who DO they blame. [ H. D. Weisberg ] > >Many of them blame the situation which gives rise to that terrorism. >Many people see it as an expected consequence of the Palestinian problem. >They don't support terrorism but they don't support what created this >situation either. I wish you could be more specific ? What are you talking about ? What is "the situation which gives rise to ..." ? Who are the "many people" ? Show how these "many people" don't support "what created ..." ? First off, some of us differ on what the causes of terrorism are, so before using those premises, prove them ! > Farzin Mokhtarian mark homxb!mr
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/26/86)
> H. D. Weisberg (brandx@ihlpl.UUCP) writes: > > > Again, you are trying to make Israel the guinea pigs for the woes of the > > world. Sorry, no chance will anyone fall for that line (except out of > > ignorance). You make it sound like Israel ALONE is arming the ayatollah > > and the terrorists, all in one swoop. Your information is pretty weak. > > Fine. Israel is ONE OF the countries that is arming the ayatollah and the > terrorists. Is that better? I wouldn't say that arming ayatollah is the same as arming the terrorists. Also, if I am not mistaken, Israel is not selling the types of weapons used (currently) by the terrorists. I though they were selling aircraft parts and aircraft repair diagnostic modules. Also some tank parts. But I never heard of any M-16's of UZI's or other sidearms. > Farzin Mokhtarian mark homxb!mr
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (01/26/86)
> >From: dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) > Subject: Re: Islamic tolerance (is not the subject) > > > Ah. You mean they don't support the acts of the Arab countries, > > which by maintaining a state of war with Israel and keeping the > > Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps (INCLUDING 1948-1967) have > > created this "Palestinian problem" you refer to. > > Dave Sherman > > So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the > Palestinians? > If it's that easy, why wasn't the Jewish problem solved by absorbing them > into other friendly countries? > Farzin Mokhtarian The Jewish problem (I.E. The near extinction of .. ) has been solved, Israel will allow any Jew into the country and will make him a citizen immediately. mark homxb!mr
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (01/26/86)
> > > "The Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists." Well then, > > what or who DO they blame. [ H. D. Weisberg ] > > Many of them blame the situation which gives rise to that terrorism. > Many people see it as an expected consequence of the Palestinian problem. > They don't support terrorism but they don't support what created this > situation either. > Farzin Mokhtarian > This is what you would like to believe. How convenient.
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (01/26/86)
> > So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the > Palestinians? > If it's that easy, why wasn't the jewish problem solved by absorbing them > into other friendly countries? > Farzin Mokhtarian If you knew anything about Jewish history, you would know that your "solution" can never work. Or I suppose that none of the European countries in which Jews died during this century were ever "friendly" to Jews.
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (01/27/86)
>>>> If anything, they have gained contempt. Believe it or not, the Europeans >>>> don't like bombs in their airports and the like. > >>> No, I wouldn't either. But the Europeans know better than to just blame the >>> terrorists. > >>"The Europeans know better than to just blame the terrorists." Well then, >>what or who DO they blame. > >Many people see it as an expected consequence of the Palestinian problem. The problem of three generations of Palestinian Arabs living in refugee camps is what is being referred to here. I seem to recall that many are living in tents, with barely adequate facilities. I definitely agree that these conditions with no prospect for improvement could provoke people to violence. But it isn't possible to place the entire blame for the conditions of three generations of Arab Palestinians on events occuring before 1950. What about the refusal of their hosts in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc., to offer them the hospitality of those countries? Granted, these people at one time lived in areas which are now part of the State of Israel, but wouldn't it be easier for them to stay where they are under more humane conditions? This is particularly true in view of their apparent hostility towards the State of Israel.
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (01/27/86)
> So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the > Palestinians? If it's that easy, why wasn't the jewish problem solved by > absorbing them into other friendly countries? > Farzin Mokhtarian Because there were hardly any "friendly countries" that were willing to absorb them. Today the US is willing to absorb the Jews but I for one don't wish to be absorbed into a non-Jewish culture to the point of loss of my Jewish identity. How does Palestinian culture differ from Jordanian so that an Arab whose parents fled from Acre will not be content in Amman? He might prefer Acre, but had King Abdullah granted his parents *full* citzenship rather than confine them to a refugee camp we might not have had a Palestinian problem today. Same goes for all the other Arab countries that kept their refugee brothers and sisters in the camps. -- The Maxwell R. Mayhem Institute for Quandary Requiem and Maternal Sciamachy Accept no substitutes.
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (01/27/86)
Farzin Mokhtarian writes: >>From: dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) >> Ah. You mean they don't support the acts of the Arab countries, >> which by maintaining a state of war with Israel and keeping the >> Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps (INCLUDING 1948-1967) have >> created this "Palestinian problem" you refer to. > >So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the >Palestinians? >If it's that easy, why wasn't the jewish problem solved by absorbing them >into other friendly countries? Well, Farzin, there ARE no friendly countries for the Jews, unfortunately. Look at what happened in the Holocaust and you can see. The gates of the world were shut to Jewish immigration. Palestinian Arabs, on the other hand, are automatic citizens of Jordan, which you may recall in is fact 77% of Palestine. Furthermore, the Palestinian Arabs are linguistically, culturally and religiously the same as the Arabs of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and a dozen other countries. By contrast, the Jews from the Arab lands were culturally very DIFFERENT from the bulk of the original Israelis, who were from Europe. Yet they were absorbed into the country. Sure there have been problems, but Sephardic Jews in Israel today are unquestionably better off than the "Palestinian Arab" refugees who have been left by their Arab brethren to rot in refugee camps, instead of welcomed and absorbed as were the Jews by Israel. Dave Sherman Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (01/28/86)
> So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the > Palestinians? > If it's that easy, why wasn't the jewish problem solved by absorbing them > into other friendly countries? > Farzin Mokhtarian Let me remind you that the Jewish problem of Jewish refugees from arab countries was solved by Israel. Most of these Jews were absorbed in Israel. Compared to 1948, there are very few Jews in Arab countries. On the other, these refugees and their descendants form the majority of the Israeli population.
ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (02/23/86)
>> So the Palestinian problem will be solved when Arab countries absorb the >> Palestinians? >> If it's that easy, why wasn't the jewish problem solved by absorbing them >> into other friendly countries? >> Farzin Mokhtarian >If you knew anything about Jewish history, you would know that your >"solution" can never work. Or I suppose that none of the European countries >in which Jews died during this century were ever "friendly" to Jews. Why isn't it the case that if you knew anything about Arab history, you would know that YOUR "solution" would never work? -michael marii 0k0niw0n0ka, sik0hu mar00k0hu p0m0mat0na we?kwiyanuna k0ahki As they spoke, here to them osmething bright on one of them came out in sight. (Comanche tale)